Dual daggers free bleed damage is too high and should be removed

Dual daggers have very high base armor damage, more so with the insane finesse multiplier, free crit % and talents.
Does it tradeoff bad horde clear for highest armor damage? Nope.

To quote the Modder comment:

Dual Daggers perform extremely well even against hordes for a single target weapon because of its excellent headshot/crit multiplier(finesse multiplier) on light attacks, its 10% critical chance reduces the necessity to land headshots, and is now removed from lights 1 and 2 to encourage headshotting (high finesse weapons should encourage around headshotting).

Well let’s see how necessary it is to land headshots…

When you bodyshot a horde unit with DD:
It takes 7.25 dmg, flinches, within less than half a second after it recovers from the flinch, it will have taken 9 dmg bleed.
That’s 16.25.

Heck, with enhanced power:
you dont need smiter or a single property or talent
One body shot will kill a slave rat on cataclysm (16.75hp).
Two body shots will kill a fanatic on cataclysm.

Assuming you move for a fraction of a second after staggering, a slave rat on cataclysm will die before it can reach you.
Looks to me like you don’t need headshots or free crit (btw i truly cant grasp why it has 10% free crit on weapon when footknight/RV/IB/zealot/BW/UC have to struggle to fit in crit in build to activate SS with even 10% total crit hashtag remove swift slaying)

1shotbodyshot slave rats on cataclysm… many builds would kill to have that. Now let’s compare to some weapons which have horrible armor damage, and therefore should be good at something else… right?

1h sword lights 10.5
Falchion lights 11.75
Or just some other examples
Dual axes 13.5
Dual hammers 9
Exec sword 12.75

How many properties or power boosts to do something that DD does for free at very high attack speed?

But wait DD has low stamina you may say, but wait it has half-stamina-shield pushes to compensate.

DD’s strength is armor damage, but imo the gap between it and other armor damage weapons is too large, and the gap between it and horde damage weapons is tiny.

there’s other factors to consider such as cleave, reach, push/block angle and also the impact the low stamina has on blocking in general.

Removing the 10% crit from the first 2 lights is a heavy enough nerf imo, especially since a quite a few people seem to be struggling with that as is


I agree there are many other factors to consider.

15-20% of the time DD light will crit and oneshot fanatics with assassin alone, or you can even build to oneshot gors. On cataclysm. Slayer is not even close. I’m puzzled is there a reason i am missing that it should be 25-30% of the time?

At this point, it’s better just remove Dual Daggers.


Another clueless player (The OP)


The weapon does very good armor damage paired with a short charge time, high dodge range and count, and onehits everything up to a Gor with assassin only. Ontop of that it has two properties worth of crit chance on most attacks, which allows 100% SS uptime with no further crit chance investment, which in turn allows you to go for silly breakpoints like onehiting Cata SWs.
That paired with the straight downwards easy to aim heavy and the very quick pin point accurate lights is everything but balanced.

The only downside this weapon has is its low stamina, but even that hardly counts, since you only need half a shield to push.

D&D is simply unbalanced nonsese.

nerfing it further would just invalidate it in favor of sword & dagger which already has the advantage of being easier to use

I don’t see any purpose in nerfing dual daggers harder, especially since every weapon/build in general should have good SS uptime now with the pseudo-random crit changes


It has low reach and low cleave.You have to be in shove range to do anything and with the very shitty block angle (40 degrees) it has downsides more then just its stamina.

Dual Axes has 100% SS uptime thanks to the crit changes and its push attack is easy to land aswell as light attacking with Rapier.

Sword and Dagger was the broken weapon but its got it nerfed aswell as DD.I don’t think nerfing DD is the way to go at all.It would push the use of other better options and that is the exact opposite goal that the beta has been trying to achieve.

How is cleave an issue if you can land six hits a second? The block angle and “low” (average is 3 shields, daggers have 2) stamina is more than compensated by the huge mobility stats.

It doesnt matter if we talk about S&D, or D&D. Both are still by far the most busted weapons.

There is no reason for D&D to do armor damage on lights, or have crit chance on L1 and L2 ontop of the bleed stacks. Thats just silly nonsense paired with the weapons stats an mobility.

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It does not do armour damage on light attacks and it does not have crit chance on Light attacks 1/2 and does not apply bleed to armour targets.

And cleave does matter ALOT.DD has near the the same speed as Rapier and it has 1/3 of the cleave DD has.If they removed Rapier’s cleave no person that likes Rapier will use it.

Elven Axe has no cleave but good armour damage and no one uses it.If it has better cleave(alot of people have been begging for it) it would be used more.



If so, then DD, with the fastest attack speed (or close to) (and free crit on shade), of all weapons, is the one that LEAST needs free crit chance for SS.

SS aside, with the bleed it doesn’t need crit to 1 body shot slaves or 2 body shot fanatics either.
I can’t figure out what i’m missing, why should DD have free crit on lights?

Off topic, but you don’t need armour dmg on lights, or bleed dmg on armour (which btw it does have, not sure why -EDIT- it doesn’t have bleed but the point is the same ->) because you use heavies.

DD passively, separately applies a dot that does 80-100% dmg of some slower weapons’ lights.
What’s the design intention here?

1 shotting horde enemies with a bleed isn’t that impressive or getting a lot of crits because it’s only hitting 1 target, a crit on a cleaving attack is much more impactful because the effective damage is spread between a lot more targets. Having the overall damage of the light attack + bleed being more or similar to other single target attack is fine because it’s mostly over a few seconds where enemies are still alive.

Dual Daggers does not penetrate armour on light attacks.


The issue lies with cleave, not speed.

You can kill a marauder in a single charged heavy and its great and really fast , woah…but on the other hand you can use a greatsword to chop 4-5 of these guys down in a matter of seconds as well while also permanently staggering them and ignoring any shields.

Heck you even cleave through/past armor too.

Ever seen a merc kruber solo a chaos patrol with a greatsword? That is some nutty stuff, and it was before the last changes/buffs minor or big as they were i cant recall.

Daggers are fast yes, and have great single target yes, but those are tradeoffs for having crap cleave, crap stamina and crap reach, the last is important because some weapons like spear can hit an enemy from twice as far away which obviously makes a difference.

More reach=easier to dodge=less stamina spent.

More stamina kept=Ability to block more than 1-2 slaverats without getting staggered.

Meanwhile as for the crits bonuses…they are locked behind the first two attacks right? How often on cata with the insane enemy numbers will you actually attack more than 2-3 times in a row before blocking or pushing to keep the horde controlled?

And without crits you do no damage to armor without a heavy attack, which you cant really use safely if multiple enemies are around because it does not stagger nor cleave which is really nasty if you are standing in very close proximity to enemies due to short range.

Daggers are a niche weapon for killing this one guy infront of you fast and they are good at it, and they have tradeoffs and perhaps only need a very minor damage numbers nerf but are otherwise perfectly fine.

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So you really want to make this in a meme weapon don’t you…
The weapon was already nerfed so many times.
It’s weakness is not armour, but ping and hordes. It also doesn’t tolerate mistakes, as it’s not as good of a THP gen as some other weapons are.

It already feels as if the DD are heavily shade-gated.


Guess we have to agree to disagree on what’s impressive, for the top tier armor dmg weapon.

Yea I only mentioned crit cos it came in the whole “encouraging headshots” package. It’s separate issue.

DD heavies are unsafe now? Now i am wondering:

  1. What other weapon heavies are safer?
  2. What are the options for weapons that are less safe? Can they fish for crits with lights?

Nvm, i stopped wondering and have decided to use heavies for armor

The moveset of the dagger with SS and maximum attack speed, flows really well. But it is with a +35% attack speed boost.

The heavy without all of that attackspeed isn’t as safe ^^’

DD are my favorite weapon because the moveset flows effortlessly and somewhat intuitively.
I wish we could say the same with the elven 2H…

Naturally any weapon with enough reach, cleave, stagger or a mix of those to avoid the issue of attacking only to eat 3 attacks back.

2h hammer,executioner, greatsword, spear and dual swords come to mind as examples of this.

Lets be real, you wont use a heavy attack against a stormvermin/chaos warrior with a heap of lesser enemies around them charging along. Instead you will pick off all the smaller ones then heavy the bigger one to death leisurely.

Others like spear will likely also do that but it remains fair safer due to range, no risk of a couple of enemies running through the chaos warrior and hitting you because you were standing too close with no time to react/middle of an attack.

There are a lot of weapons which are far worse than DD still they don’t get bleed or extra crit chance.

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This is true.

However,is this a case of “DD should be nerfed” or “other weapons should be buffed”?..Personally i am quite sure its the latter.

Bonus crit chance on the 3rd and 4th hit? You dont actually access those all that much given how one has to weave block/pushes into attack patterns these days.

Poor stamina? 2 hits from a couple of slaves and you are staggered, poor reach and cleave? Enemies do not have to move as much to reach you and you have a harder time dodging their swings.

Heck the stagger is not all that impressive either, sure the daggers are so fast you can easily keep 2 smaller guys on a loop but anything bigger/armored/shield will hardly ever react.

Its a high damage weapon that has poor control abilities and relies on having a lot of space and good timing to dodge to deal said damage but if you lack space, fail a dodge or encounter a mixed horde you are pretty screwed.

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