Doesn't Cataclysm (or Legend) needs a new balance pass?

  • Cataclysm do increase the speed of how enemies attacks.
  • To compensate this, @Incandescent and his pals (and kinda all of us discussing) balance touches attack speed on several weapons.
  • Therefore we balance weapons around cataclysm, where attacks needs to be faster.
  • Which means that by balancing weapons for cata, we do make legend (where you don’t need that increase in speed) far easier than it should be.
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I think another problem is just inconsistent difficulty of events and bosses (at least on legend). Most of them are somewhere between really easy and complete joke and need to be looked at.

Cata has much bigger problems than this.
The totally unchecked stagger values, enemies ignoring slotting, the bad targeting and the sound of specials missing once there are more than 3 of them, or the 3rd of the same type being completely silent.

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I do think this is for another topic. Some events are clearly out of reach for the “usual” legend player. Some are indeed way too easy.

Topic is about the changes that has been brought by cataclysm.
The attack speed change is quite problematic when it comes to balance things around.

Legend could probably be rebalanced with the “finale” attack speed from cata and a bit less damage to compensate.
Cata could probably be rebalanced regarding the stagger options. (as @Palesz point out while I write this answer)

And probably we could look at monks “damage” numbers, as we all know that this is the most problematic enemy in the game right now.

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I mean we could ask even bigger questions than that. The thing is, how casual or difficult do we want to make these difficulties? Are one-shot bodyshot breakpoints in Legend good? Elites there drop like flies, and there’s even less of them. Are we okay with one-shot bodyshotting most specials? What specials should be one-shotted, and which ones shouldn’t be? Do we want to bring in horde diversity to Legend, with berserker waves, shield waves and elite waves? What about stagger resistances? Should Chaos Warriors be much more resistant to stagger effects? What about monsters, is the gap between boss killers and non-boss killers too big? Stuff like Mercenary greatsword deals low damage to monsters, should that damage be brought up and normalized? And what about something like Shade which takes a significant chunk off a boss. Should be that brought down a bit?

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Well to be fair, there are several things to consider :

  • When you up to legend, you usually don’t have thoses breakpoints.
  • When you’re fully stuffed, you’re kinda ready to attack Cataclysm.

Now this is indeed a pretty big question :

  • If it were me, I would remove all “+% against” properties, which would make weapon balance far easier. (and probably add more variety into properties instead, a bit like diablo games to compensate)
  • I would also “introduce” horde diversity (but with one or 2 elites mixed in)
  • I would also keep differences between careers “as is”. A career should have clear strengths and clear weaknesses (we do lack the second part for some careers). The more you balance a “boss killer career” with a “non boss killer career”, the less diversity you’ll have between careers. The less meaningful thoses careers will be.
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Thank you for making a post about it, i’ve been thinking about this aswell recently and i’d be eager to read everyone their arguments and opinions.

I’ve been thinking about it recently because a friend of mine has gotten back into it recently and after spending a long while in cata/twitch or weaves going back to legend alot of the considered bad weapons in cata are pretty usefull in legend or not as bad.

Personally i think legend should be balanced and feel hard. If i can make a couple of examples: Stormvermin not being killable by a bodyshot, also specials. Headshots with snipers are fine or oneshots with heavy hitting slow weapons. Like playing legend on double health double dmg modifier is how legend should feel with the current balance in place (still some outlier weapons/talents). I’m gonna use my own example again, where my friend asked if he should buy cataclysm dlc because legend was pretty easy, which led us to doing weekly and twitch. You could say i probably carried him, which could be true and that would be even worse if 1 person can carry 3 players, but i always went ‘off meta’. for example i go : fk with shield, unchained (and i sùck at unchained, hard), you get the idea.

Bosses and monsters shouldn’t be killed in 10 seconds by boss killers. Take a shade with concoction, barrage stacks and the boss just dissapears? On cata it’s good, monsters get killed faster by boss killers but don’t get 2 shot.

So either 2 bots are carrying; i am carrying or legend is too easy; or my friend is carrying.

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Elegant or not, the damage cap for this should have been introduced a long time ago.

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Not until you cough up 15$. That’s the thing I’m really iffy about, paywalling a difficulty is a straight no-go for me anyways, but especially in a game like Vermintide this is scuffed. As it is right now, Legend is really casual (at least from my perspective). Practically all specials get one-shotted by most weapons like brace of pistols or crossbow, which are fast firing and have fast reloads. Elites die like flies, and there’s very few of them. Hordes are small, enemy quantity is small. Playing someone like Zealot you straight up have trouble sustaining yourself with tHP, and it doesn’t help when ranged careers pick off most ambient elites and enemies.
This is the highest difficulty in the game, in a game which is marketed as a difficult game. If you’re a more dedicated player and want to have a more proper experience playing the game without scuffed breakpoints, you’re forced to shill out more money for the experience that you already thought you paid for. It makes more sense in my mind that Champion would be the casual difficulty with all those breakpoints, while Legend would actually be the endgame difficulty with enemy diversity, and minus the breakpoints. It’s the highest difficulty in the vanilla game, but it doesn’t feel like it.

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Yea, i’m not sure what the solution is, damage cap could work. Another thing that could work is add mechanics like bile troll having different phases, which caps damage indirectly.

I would like them to make cata host-only, so others can join without owning dlc OR make cata a seperate dlc that costs for example 3-5 euro’s.

Also what i told my friend. WoM isn’t worth it if you just want cata, if i were you i would wait for a sale.

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On that topic I would separate monsters and “end boss”. I don’t care for monsters to be done in 10 seconds, if it’s a fully prepared combo from a specifically boss killer career. It’s an issue for end boss (which should be limited into “phases”).

I don’t think that paywalling a difficulty is a big deal considering it’s an optional one (does not reward more), and that is kinda a part of a big expansion (so it’s kinda like in all games).
I do also think that legend is not casual (but we all have 2k+ hours, so it’s hard to say). But I would still add back some “general” difficulty : a bit of mixed horde (not a lot), and the same attack speed than in cata so people do not have to learn twice (this is the difficulty where they’ll stay for long, learning, it should at least teach you the timings correctly).

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To actually arrive where you point at, the completion based reward should be changed to progress based reward.
So, that when you reach the end event, with full book, your general chest is guaranteed - remove ranald’s middle finger altogether - and with completing the event, you get the emperor chest.
That way the game can get bonkers on your ass and you still get decent reward instead of all or nothing.

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Let’s be serious. ‘fully prepared combo’ > spam 5 arrows > press f > stab. Aim head > press f > repeat.
Remember when huntsman could trivialize monsters? Why should the others be any different? is it because huntsman isn’t considered a boss killer?

Edit: you don’t even need to do the barrage stacks thing or throw schrapnel. Just drink potion and press f is enough.

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To be honest the whole progression system in Vermintide is more of a chore and feels like a glorified tutorial. It takes around, let’s say 50 hours to reach power level 300 gear. Up until then, customizing your gear is pointless, all you do in the game is to get more chests so you can reach a higher power level so you can finally feel like you’re properly playing the game. Not only that, you’re forced to play on lower difficulties until you reach a certain power level. Early game is crucial for players because first impressions can shape the perception of a game for a while. I’ve seen several threads on steam, and one of my friends was one of those people, who thought that the game was just an easy and boring mindless hack’n slash game because they played recruit/veteran and couldn’t force themselves to play more so they could play higher difficulties. Recruit/veteran are straight up ridiculous, you’re forced to play them, and for many, it’s way too easy. Enemies barely tickle you, and I think the absolutely biggest thing is that the difficulties just feel so empty. It doesn’t feel like a horde game, you don’t feel like you’re fighting anything significant, it’s not fun and there’s little action. But you’re forced to play them.

Would have been much better if simpler restrictions were put in place (like win 1-3 recruit missions to progress to Veteran, 2-5 Veteran games to progress to Champion etc.), and if power level was just removed. Instead, you’d have V1’s system. It would also be a lot easier to properly manage and balance difficulties, since weapon stats are more set in stone (apart from career abilities, talents and traits), and it would remove a significant chore for players to do.

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I mean, it’s a boss killer, that should be its speciality. The spam 5 arrows could be more costly if Shade didn’t have access to ammo generation for no specific reason.
Again, Monsters should not be “totally hard stop” in the middle of the map. End bosses, should ask you for more things.
What’s the point of having a boss killer that does 10% more damage than a non boss killer oO

Shouldnt we have had this discussion before throwing the BBB out as the next best thing alive? I mean we could have directly attuned the weapons in such a way that Legend would actually feel difficulty and Cataclysm pose a great challenge. All it would have needed would have been some toning down of the stronger weapons.

Instead we are discussing some weird round about way of buffing 90 % of the arsenal, just to then buff the difficulties which (if this would be the maximum of entertaining) reach the same point we had before the weapon balance.

I mean, yea, bringing weapons to same level makes sense. But buffing them just to buff difficulty afterwards is kinda silly. It would have been easier to nerf some a bit. Because I am sure it has been said in this forum often enough that balancing has to be done with regard to the difficulty.

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I mean, it’s a beta, a non announced one so we didn’t know it would happen, and some changes to difficulties could probably be done at the same time. We buff “lowers” difficulties. Because even if we lower the top weapons, the fact that Legend don’t teach you the good practices (not the same timings) is and stays an issue.

I take back my original statement

Thing is, people don’t lose because of hordes or elites. People mainly lose due to difficult end events, bad positioning and specials. The special spawn rate I think is perfectly acceptable. Whether or not the breakpoints are fine is a point of debate. But what straight up makes Legend casual are the bodyshot breakpoints for elites. Not only are there far fewer elites, but you kill them like it’s nothing. Elite enemies don’t feel like elites, they don’t feel resilient. That by itself makes it casual. I think Legend with no stupid breakpoints, horde diversity and more chaff enemies would by itself transform the difficulty into being better, without even making it more difficult in any meaningful way. It would, at least for me, just change the feel of it all (although I don’t play Legend to begin with, so this isn’t exactly my fight).

Have you seen the outrage at the few nerfs that did happen? I’ve never seen people go this insane over a few nerfs to some of the strongest weapons in the game. This approach is much better, not only will people not get angry at Fatshark (since they don’t nerf any weapons), but they’ll probably get praised, meanwhile achieving the exact same thing. Win-win situation. People aren’t exactly logical.

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