Criticism of the class/talent system

Warhammer: Vermintide 2 Feedback
42

Now not to generally disagree with you but this time it was mostly power creep.
And yes sure V1 and V2 have different approaches in enemy numbers.

I’m really concerned about this dough with the upcoming difficulty since spamming and hp sponging would be the wrong and non fun approach. Sadly FS currently does not have an A grade in balancing and there is no indication that they are willing to look at things like temp hp, dodge time window etc. to make the difficulty properly challenging.
We don’t even know what they think about the current balance state, ok? not ok?

43

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If you’re going to add something to this discussion could you please do so without boasting or pretending you’re the only player who has spent any significant amount of time in this game? Also please read and understand the discussion before jumping to a response.

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44

Stop it we get that the OP was part rant.
No point in nit picking.

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45

lol

Not sure if serious, still hilarious (and wrong) though.

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46

Ok I’m not the best at the game but I’ve played enough to be able to tell that you can’t really compare those two classes because it’s two vary different play styles Slayer has amazing hord clear and single target dps that can melt or just really hurt some enemies on top of having great mobility he also has one of the fastest recharging ults that you can almost spam that gives you more movement speed, attack speed, you can jump through enemies and has knock down the only thing you could compare between the two is probably there hord clear potential and how they can clutch revive but ironbreaker has a better clutch I think

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47

Ironbreaker has amazing horde clear. Dual crithammers with swift slaying or drakegun for example. As for single target DPS, if we’re talking elites then ranged weapons will destroy any elites in an instant. If we’re talking bosses or chaos warriors then yes, while he lacks dps on them, he makes up for it with defence and constant damage. If an ironbreaker does power attacks on a boss while boosting his defences with taunt, he can solo it in as little as 45 seconds.

Slayer has more offense but with huge glaring tradeoffs.

48

I agree that there are some significant performance inconsistencies between some hero careers, talents and different weapons¨, but i seriously disagree with a lot of your comparisons ser OP and i shall attempt to explain it.

For instance, when comparing careers.

As i see it there are a few “general classes” that different careers fit into, some careers can be part of multiple of these classes and i´ll list em as i see em, i´ll explain why after.

Tanks are ironbreaker, unchained, zealot and footknight.

Ranged specialists are Waystalker, Bounty hunter, Pyromancer, ranger veteran and Huntsman.

Melee damage specialists are WHC, Slayer, Zealot,Handmaiden, Shade, Mercenary and Battle wizard.

Anti boss specialists are Shade&Huntsman…and Zealot due to sheer power.

Now as i see it, if you want to make an argument about a career´s performance you ought to first compare them to other overlapping careers first, this because comparing the quality of an apple to that of an orange just tells you they are different generally.

Comparing apple type X to apple type G might get you somewhere though.

As for some of your comparisons…yes there are talents that are significantly better than others, but handmaiden invisibility is actually just something assholes use actually, as it resets aggro onto your team.

So you want to run the bleed when its working(heard it isnt) or the CDR one, stuff like this is also important to bear in mind.

And blocking is such a core aspect of the game i barely even know where to start, sure dodging is absolutely vital, but when it comes down to a dirty melee you´ll never be more than useless if you cant control hordes with proper blocking and pushing when you have little space to dodge.

Its not a situation you want to end up in, but its absolutely vital to be able to do it if necessary, otherwise you are little different from the ranged guys who seem to die anything anything gets in melee range.

But indeed, pushing doesnt knock your opponents over but it does stagger non specials and elites which gives you more room to dodge and attack without interruption, would be way too easy otherwise.

Comparing battle wizard with Ironbreaker is pointless, instead compare with handmaiden, and if talking unchained? Unchained is tankier and better at ranged stuff.

I do agree that there is a lack of viable builds though, and many traits are just not used or good at all really, many weapons as well.

Comparing a damage class to a tank one and stating that the tank is tankier? You ought to rename your account “Sherlock”, why not mention that slayer does a lot more damage while you are at it?

And slayer is far from damn useless! He is the only one who can keep up with Zealot in a melee and i think he is the only melee who can kill Chaos warriors in 1-2 hits without any ability.

Honestly the worst problems the game currently has is a couple of hero careers being overpowered, a few weapons being overpowered, a heap of traits&weapons being subpar or even useless and AOE too strong.

Then a couple of careers being underpowered or underwhelming, such as Footknight and possibly handmaiden, they dont really feel impressive at all.

These are as i see it, the core of most current issue´s.

You ser OP, have a few good points that i as mentioned do agree with(too many performance differences in various things), but some of your comparisons and statements i find basically nonsensical.

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49

Because rapier lacks amour penetration ( goes same for elven dual sword ) while axe and falchion both excels through enemies and piercing amour even with light attacks. Not to mention its great dodge distance, stamina pool, attack speed, and stance.

50

Without going through your reply point by point. The reason I say that blocking is useless is that with many builds, you attack so quickly and with so much stagger that you don’t need to stand there blocking and shoving.

Granted you need to block to catch the odd attack or stormvermin swing but it’s not a core aspect of combat like it was in Vermintide 1. On tanky characters especially you gain so much temporary health from dodges that even in the event of taking a hit, you can heal back to full with temp health gains (even more so with the 30% extra healing trinket).

So to have a build that focuses on blocking or shoving as opposed to cleave/crit/damage or defensive skills is close to useless. Slayer has those defensive skills but at the cost of valuable talent points which leaves you with less impact than an IB.

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51

Actually rapier does have armour pen. But you must have crit power and crit chance on your weapons along with holy crusader. This allows you to have insane strong critstabs which can even destroy Chaos warriors very quickly with even mild rng.

It’s why I feel strongly that zealot is in such an insanely powerful spot compared to every other class along with his near invincibility.

52

Or you have skill with headshots and then in combination with the pistol it becomes one of the best weapons. Still a bit below the A&F and if you apply the same skill to the A&F it becomes ridiculous.
While 20% crits is nice I like to actually know how, when and for certain that I killed the elite.

Btw if the rapier is ever considered too strong I would start by removing it’s shield lvl block effectiveness and the 50% discount pushes.

53

That would not solve anything. A swift slaying rapier is so strong on zealot to the point that you only need to use push attacks if you’re badly surrounded or at 1 hp. Most of the time you’re not even using stamina at all you’re just dancing around regenerating hp and mashing mouse 1.

I feel the problem stems from the new mechanics like critical hits, temporary health class abilities etc… When these weapons were clearly designed with the first game in mind. We have a situation where fast mobility weapons can be built with all their negative traits nullified turning them into god mode weapons that destroy absolutely everything.

Verm 1 had clear and deliberate limitations on customization like 5% chance to regain health on a hit to encourage players to rely on skill more than gear. In 2 you can push customization to it’s breaking point where the game is no longer hard any more. Hence the devs making a new difficulty.

54

Yes if you combine the rapier for example with in my opinion broken mechanics and builds it goes god mode but I still want to mention A&F would give you +1 on your god mode.

Temp hp in particular is basically the foundation why so much that worked well in V1 is utterly broken in V2, like defense since offence will provide now. It’s quite simply a big fat flaw in the design unless it was meant for Zealot and Slayer exclusively instead of the tanky talents they currently have.

55

I guess most of the problems really come down to temporary health in the end. It really just makes those tanky classes even more tankier while allowing super squishes to trade without really having to worry about taking hits in return.
Personally hoping they would somewhat rework the mechanic In WoM but i guess that’s too much to ask at this point in games live.

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56

Every crit piercing through armour.
Your rapier, the chaos warrior blender with even mild rng crit seems op though.

57

Well when I say mild rng, what I mean is even in the worst case scenario and your crits just won’t come out, you can still delete a chaos warrior without any problem.

The majority of time however you string together multiple crits along with swift slaying and the chaos warrior just dies.

58

At this point i bet youve never played legend dont you? Because of difficulty matters, in recruit / veteran / champion no one has problem as the game is too easy and enemies have very small health pool. I never saw a man nor experienced light spam chaos kill with a rapier on legend, have you?

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59

This again…

60

No offense mate, but do you actually play Legend? If you don’t have the items go on the modded realm and try it yourself with a maxed out crit build.

With maxed out crit chance, plus crit power from both weapons, trinket and Saltzpyre’s talent tree: You get critical rapier stabs that are so incredibly strong, it turns the weapon into an armour piercing weapon even on Legend. Swift slaying only makes these crits happen more frequently with a higher dps.

61

Do you play zealot, ironbreaker/slayer primarily? Because they are the only ones i can think off who
with some weapons can attack quickly with enough stagger to do what you describe.

Elf with dual swords can do it against smaller enemies but lacks stagger of anything bigger than a SV…and dual hammers lack damage from what i can tell, at least compared to dual axes on the slayer.

And slayer simply trades between damage or durability, difference is that he never get as tanky as ironbreaker but he also always does more damage.

The only overpowered careers as of now are Zealot and Shade, the only ones i´d call underpowered are Footknight and Handmaiden.