Coherency is anti-teamwork and toxic

As I said I’d do, I’m uploading a game I hopped into right after posting in this thread (horrific UP speeds though so gonna take a while lol), I’ll edit my comment once it uploads. This game feels more or less like 95% of my cata games, as you can see for yourself no one is lone wolfing or if they are, then I think people just have the wrong idea about what lone wolfing actually means or at the very least have VERY unrealistic standard for a bunch of strangers that aren’t even in voice comms with eachother, because from my perspective all the randos in my team played how I’d expect the chars to be played and there was never a moment where I felt like they weren’t being team players in the slightest. Hell, this was a perfect run too, with no one even dropping once.

All of that without forcing you to stick together for their THP to not be an active hindrance to them, what a concept eh?

And playing this round, I was again reminded why I really dislike the cohesion mechanic, although I’m probably more bothered by toughness and the way ranged units interact with it, considering how much more common they are.

Not the OP obviously, but if him and I are thinking along the same lines then there’s absolutely no issue with passive auras. Like I said in my earlier comment, everything about the cohesion mechanic is fine - other than how it interacts with toughness, seeing how integral toughness is to your survival (ignoring the fact that it kinda gets ignored by melee hits but that’s another issue).

The toughness regen you get from other means vs how much damage is inflicted on your toughness is the real issue for me. I guess I’ll have to re-evaluate when (if lol) they fix cover being broken, enemies not switching to melee and other similar issues, but as it stands I think toughness is way too punishing of a mechanic, especially if I compare it to THP (and like it or not, VT2 is the gold standard that this game is going to get compared to constantly)

EDIT: And here it is, probably gonna take another while to process into 1080 though

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nope

My only question is, do two of the same class still not stack auras? There’s a lot of weird stuff like that in the game that confuse me on what they actually want from people.

Toughness regen being so reliant on being next to each other is kind of annoying. I imagine it just needs tweaking, though. Put another way, I liked the ideas that it should linger if you leave the range for a bit, and maybe act less as an aura and more as a chain to let people spread out a bit more. Maybe you could at least let toughness regen a little more slowly(and only halfway up your meter?) when you’re not near anyone, just so you still have a solution, even if it is one that feels bad to encourage grouping back up pretty often.

Simple stuff like that lets you break away from the group to charge(since both frontliners have dashes…) or find a better angle to shoot from without punishing anyone as immediately or severely.

EDIT: This is an aside, but better visual clarity on where my teammates even are could go a long way in helping with this kind of thing, too. They’re kinda ugly, but I really liked the highlights in Vermintide 2, and you could have the color even change to indicate if you’re close enough for coherency or not, or if someone isn’t in the chain. Stuff like this goes a long way.

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I think the reason people are mentioning lone wolf players is due to the OP sounding like one and in a way defending this kind of gameplay. I don’t think making glib remarks to what people are saying is very helpful. Toughness definitely needs to be tweaked and buffed for the higher diffs imo, reminding people, especially those like OP that this is a team game is a good point to make. its good that we have a system that actually rewards that, i don’t think it should be scrapped. Ults can be used tactically you don’t need to use them mindlessly into a horde when there’s a strong possibility there’ll be no pay-off for it. Even if you do, you can recover fairly quickly.

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I really like the ideas of the aura being lingering and there being limited toughness regen even without cohesion. I think the current hard cut off system just feels bad to play with, especially in higher difficulties where you’re facing more enemies and potentially have more and more situations where you have to split a bit, as that’s where how weak toughness is really starts to show its problems.

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There is limited toughness regen without cohesion, it just comes from your toughness talents rather than passive regen from the cohesion aura.

And again I really don’t agree with the idea that it’s actually that important to always have the passive toughness regen from cohesion. It’s not a requirement, it’s just a mechanic that makes the squad somewhat tougher when fighting in close proximity. Splitting off from coherency isn’t a death sentence, it’s a tactical decision that requires you to weigh the benefit of looser positioning vs. some extra mechanical power.

Take the oft given example of “veteran staying behind the team to shoot from a distance.” If it really is a tactically sound decision for them to do that, if it actually does allow them to pick off more ranged enemies and specials, then the team should be saving far more toughness from the potential damage you’re disabling than from the marginal increase in regeneration that one coherency stack would give them.

If that doesn’t end up being the case, maybe splitting off wasn’t actually as good a decision as you thought it was.

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What an aura is liek depends upon what it is. Long term wide-range auras such as Coherency yeah I’m against unless it’s a part of the power of a class being brought, such as if you have some magician buff class that doesn’t have much attack or defense then that they buff their team is a part of the balance of that class.

Usual Auras which are shorter-range and temporary or kick in under certain circumstance such as low health or proximity to numebr of enemies or whatever do also have their place in party games, similar to AOE attacks, grenades, Ultimates, stuns whatever. We’ve discussed generally being split up is being at a disadvantage where the team is struggling, of course also being together can be the most difficult times too such as it’s chaos, huge difficulty spike, 1 player is dead, 3 players are thrown all over the place, and 1 player goes down, the other 2 decide to run to help the third player and all the aggro the 3 players had is now going to come from every direction and mob the attempt to save the third player. This is where certain Auras have their place in party games, like buffs and emergency skills and ultimates and grenades and whatever, when it’s a bad situation and you’re all crushed together.

I don’t know why we need to go over stuff like this that should go without saying.

In Tide games the team being split up is because of a reason, often a difficult situation where they can’t get together and/or player deciding it’s to pull a train far away from the team. That is already a bad situation. That is the time that rather you want to give players a way to deal with the situation instead of compounding the situaiton.

Like this stuff about whether it is “buff” or “debuff” doesn’t matter. The issue is which one is the rest of the game balanced around? Due to the nature of the game one would imagine the rest of the game is balanced around that players have max coherency and so it’s effectively a debuff to not have it.

I’m not here to say that Coherency should be removed as in the buff is removed, I’m not here to say that Coherency should be removed as in the debuff should be removed.

I’m saying Fatshark should take their game seriously and DECIDE which one it is that the game balance is built around and balance the game around that. Don’t ruin the balance of your game and take your game so fundamentally unseriously and give arbitrary debuff to the most difficult situation, the last time you should apply a debuff, for the sake of some trivial infantilising paternalistic weird Nudging type attitude toward their players. Take you game seriously, take your players seriously, take your game design seriously, take your balance seriously.

Know that I am of the exact same opinion as you, but I believe you are preaching to the choir here. I am slowly but surely getting the feeling, that Vermintide 2 with all its options for the players and its high skill ceiling was too intimidating for most people, which is why those folks now wanna make sure Darktide will feel nothing like it. A sad state of affairs indeed.

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I can’t be bothered to dig up specific things to reply to so I’ll just make a quick point:

I’m not sure if the people who are going “It encourages teamwork!” have done much yet in DT but it most definitely has had little to no impact on the number of players caring about flailing off into the sunset in my experience. If anything I have significantly more people running off on their own in Darktide. (Obviously there are other factors in play as well) This has remained even on the higher difficulties so far.

There are numerous scenarios (As was also stated) where splitting up is the smarter play. I’ll just slap down a random clip from T4 difficulty (Heresy) with endless hordes (Since it’s also bugged to always have it without less hordes, yay!)

Notice how even with the increased coherency radius (50% more) from a talent, I’m having to constantly run in and out of the range of my team. It feels really bad to know I’m absolutely screwed if I can’t reach a unit to melee in time or if I can’t reach a teammate in time, despite clearly still being a teammate in that video. I’m sure there’ll be some nitpicky person hopping in who will find some errors (I definitely see some, I was tired as crap at the time) but oh well. Apparently people want evidence. EDIT: Also note I’m using chained hit that gives 6% toughness regen on non first combo hits. It’s ridiculously important for survivability as the ogryn toughness talents feats are… not that great.

I’d heavily encourage people to try playing ogryn without relying on the shield constantly and without the 50% increased coherency radius talent (Which to me feels almost mandatory to make ogryn not absolutely miserable). A not insignificant portion of your time is going to be spent relying on passive regen due to your weaker ranged options and the sheer damage ranged units pump out on T3+ in conjunction with your huge hitbox. Getting put on a leash to your team if you don’t have a melee unit near you to hit feels extremely bad, since it’s not always the better move and can actually put you at more risk at times. (Or your teammates)

I’ve heard similar responses from zealots in terms of frustration with the coherency system/toughness in general. You essentially get punished for daring to try to move forward, which is the smarter move yet you’re getting put into a significantly riskier position because of your class. I feel like a lot of people defending it so heavily haven’t moved out of T1/2 and/or they play psyker/veteran.

I wouldn’t go to the extreme of saying it’s anti teamwork, but it’s certainly heavy handed and makes the game less interesting. (And simply feels bad to be put on a leash, even when it’s not the smarter move positioning wise) Even prior to this current beta I was already leery of it and my opinion has not changed outside of maybe moving from a “I hate this” to a “Well at least I can slap on the 50% radius talent and care less about it, even if it still irritates me as a constant reminder, particularly moments where we’re split for some reason and a common love taps me for all of my toughness while a few random ranged units spawn and start shooting me.” internal screaming

EDIT: This was not as quick as intended. Woops.

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Man, Ogryn is really weak to ranged damage :l

To be honest, Coherency is a +.

I think it should have a wider effect (like 20-30m, beyond that point, you are lonewolfing) and have more interesting effects and feats related.
Like, zealot has a default 7% dmg reduction, but:
FEAT1: Reduction increased to 15%
FEAT2: No more damage reduction, but 10%? increased attack speed to allies in C.
FEAT3:Using Skill restores 40%? toughness to allies in C.

C’mon Fatshark, give us cool alternatives :smiley:

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Everything said in OP is 100% true and valid. I couldnt have made the same post more coherently.

incredible how absolutely not here corhänz is dismissed. A Sharpshooter gives ammo for elite kills and allies in range and gets ammo when others in range kill elite. A preacher gives toughness damage reduction of 15% for everyone in range. Ogry reduces the damage. Likewise, I can give 20% power to anyone in range when I use sprint. Which is pretty useless since then I’m out of range. I guess only a small fraction of the writers here play on T4 at the moment. Your answers are T1 level and you can see that by how unbalanced you make the aura. I I I I and I bet my ass that here are also so wolves that bring nothing to the team but everything to muni suck away like a vacuum cleaner the mites. YES the game has construction sites where you look, skills, penances that have nothing to do with teamplay. Mission design that when certain aoe types of opponents appear for close combat to the death trap you stand together. Teil sich das team auf verlieren sie 15% zähigkeitsreduktion und ja auf t4 t5 ist das Merkbar auf t1 t2 t3 laufe auch brain afk entspannt durch. T4 T5 is the focus on your environment and positioning. That a Preacher with Bolter in rapid fire breaks through because all sit nailed in cover. Must be clear to everyone that you follow him to the nääcshten cover 15 shots are quickly gone. And reload I only do in cover. Who reloads his weapon in the open field has not understood something. And yes the aura may be longer. Endboss fight runs anyway only so. 2 players each have a medi kit so medi kits are never thrown on the road especially on t4 t5. You throw them out at the boss and all the heal stacks and then fouc bos in 15 seconds, the down on t4 t5 level. The ads are with addition. But I experience very often the rnd the medi kits scheinabr want to take home then insult the people for noobs and after the game you see first of t4 no lvl 30 but lvl 8. but call us noobs. And there is the further building site it must not be that such a thing to a t3 t4 t5 have absolute nogo for me.

How about next time instead of google translating, you actually write in english. I am german as well and even I cannot make sense of half of what you wrote here.

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I’ve played VT2, L4D, DRG and plenty other horde shooters, and I have to disagree. The coherency mechanic is one of my favourite gameplay elements. I see where OP is coming from, in that there are plenty of good reasons to split up to an extent - but there should be risk to go with that reward.

I think it should be renamed to “cohesion” though.

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Coherency isn’t a buff for standing near teamworks but is funcitonally a penalty for not being near teammates.

Spin it how you like, but all I’m reading is players complaining about the game ‘rewarding players’ for staying within team coherency and how going solo has become a lot harder because of the system.

Going solo in Darktide is a risk and often its not worth the reward other than pleasure thrill seekers own ego. If players ever manage to master soloing Darktide, time will tell, but they will have to do so with the cards that they are dealt.

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100%ture

how is this thread still alive? today, once again, I finished the game on 4+ with 3 zealots in the team (including me) and somehow no one complained about the lack of the rest of the buffs from other classes. If you can, you know how to play, you’ll get it even on 4x the same class team. Will it be hard? Depends on the mission narrator, sometimes it’s a cosmic challenge where you swing a sword at every your turn, sometimes it’s a walk in the park.

The very title of this thread is so idiotic "if you play in a team are you toxic??

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Coherency is a good gameplay mechanic to force new players into the coop loop quicker.

Coherency is a bad mechanic for vermintides high skill ceiling gameplay, which most of the community was expecting to be relevant in higher difficulties. At the moment we havent been completely provided with the tools to counter all of the new debuffing mechanics.

While vermintide cata felt harsh but fair, damnation sounds plain harsh.

As an Ogryn I wish coherency range were larger - even with the +50% buff, I can still charge out of range. C’mon, that’s my one trick as an Ogryn.

But that’s an argument about the numbers, not the idea. Ultimately, the idea of coherency is just a basic design choice to give flavor to Darktide. Yeah, it has its downsides and restrictions, but on balance it helps make this game different from all the other shooters. I can’t say it’s any kind of design mistake. It might need a bit of tuning, however.

I don’t know the actual numbers, but it would definitely be nice if 2 separate pairs were almost as good as 4 together. That gives a lot of flexibility while still being teamwork. Maybe it’s already that way? Hard to notice in the middle of combat.

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The only way Coherency would be toxic is if the entire game balance hinged on coherency buffs and it was impossible to win without them.

And obviously that’s not the case. Oooo, 1% ammo back some of the time, a grenade back some of the time, damage against elites. Be still my beating heart.

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