Closing Thoughts on the BBB - BH and ammo sustain traits generally

Ammo Conservation Traits

Recent talk around here about ammo sustain, especially on melee careers, had me thinking about how things could be tweaked to make the ammo regen traits a bit less abuseable by classes who really have no right to have the kind of effective ammo pools they do.

Scrounger: Every 5th/6th shot that hits an enemy restores 5% ammo (capped at 3 shots)

Conservative Shooter: Every 2nd headshot restores 5% ammo (capped at 2 shots)

The idea here is to smooth out the usability of both ammo sustain traits across careers and weapons, while lowering the potential highs eg conservative shooter no longer equates to potentially infinite ammo on weapons like handgun with a very high headshot rate. High crit careers no longer get a significantly higher benefit from Scrounger, meaning WHC can no longer Ult and be just about ammo neutral with BoP.

Numbers could probably use some tuning, and I don’t imagine such changes would be popular. It would also inevitably have knock on effects such as largely gutting BH’s ammo sustain, so would create a significant amount of work with additional rebalancing. Figured the idea was at least worth throwing out here, because I do think how proficient a lot of melee careers are at deleting specials with ranged weapons without really struggling with ammo robs ranged careers of their niche in a party comp.

Bounty Hunter

Just miscellaneous thoughts and suggestions about BH’s talents as of patch 11.

Last Shot Power - Too fiddly to be worth it currently. I’d suggest a duration increase to 20-30 seconds so it’s more feasible to get decent uptime out of it.
Weapon swap buff: Great fun after the most recent changes. Still don’t love how the stacks interact with volley bow cleave, and it’s a bit more of a buff to crossbow builds than I would have liked, but for now I will absolutely take it as is for what it brings to BoP/Rep Pistol builds. Thank you for listening on this, Fat Shark.
Melee Kill Reload: Please change to also work for special kills. I don’t think that’d be too much. Ammo generated by this talent should also be immediately loaded (there currently seems to be a noticeable delay between receiving the ammo and it going into the active clip). Otherwise great talent, loving it.
Weight of fire - Make this talent less of a meme, and help volley bow actually exist as an option in one neat change - Additionally to its current effect, adds 2% ranged cleave per bullet in max clip (eg 24% for BoP, 30% for crossbow). Lets volley crossbow cleave a marauder again at the cost of not taking the always useful Open Wounds. Seems fair to me. Could also be fun with BoP.
Move speed talent (whatever it’s called lol): The live version of this talent probably wasn’t picked much, but absolutely had a niche in giving BH a fighting chance to clutch if he found himself last man standing, as well as generally improving his safety in melee. The beta version is just completely useless. Please just revert this, or if you want to make it more competitive also give it an additional bonus, like 10% more dodge range or something, but it has to be restored to 20% move speed to have any impact regardless.

Rep Pistol: Its alt fire really shouldn’t do so much less damage per pellet, especially against armour, than single shot. Also 48 ammo would be nice for BH without changing ammo sustain much for WHC or Zealot. Just bringing the armour damage up on the alt fire, and maybe tightening it’s spread up a little (specifically for the alt fire, single shot spread is acceptable) would probably be enough to make it a more competitive pick.

All in all, Beta’s been fun, glad we got the changes we did, definitely feels like a significantly better place overall than before BBB.

11 Likes

Interesting ideas. Would a penetrating headshot count twice(eg headshotting 2 fanatics with one bullet)?
Or can only one headshot per attack count?

Limit to 3 shots basically only affects Swiftbow on HM with ammo talent and WS
Personally I‘m fine with that, but it would Hurt WS as a range career more than HM, so the limit could be removed.

I have seen a suggestion somewhere, that basically said remove the ammo regen traits alltogether and only give the 4 range careers talent/passives for ammo regen.
Would like to see an FS post, how they were actually thinking about the whole nonrange career ammo sustain thing.
Personally I would like that. They all have/had ammo regen talents/passives that could be adjusted if they were to remove ammo traits.

You‘ve got my vote. Always felt kinda wrong to me that some melee careers could be so ammo efficient, while some range careers somewhat struggled in comparison.

IMO the talent feels unfitting for a career that starts with +50% ammo anyway. By taking this talent you are basically crippling yourself(the other two options give instant benefit) for a large portion of the map until you are down to 0, or you spend the start of the map shooting 90% of your ammo pool into the ground. (takes a while with 30 shots on the crossbow)

I think the talent needs to be changed to work depending on how much ammo is left in your clip (or at least in percentage steps of your whole ammo) to be a worthwhile pick.
Like giving a flat 5% power and 2% attackspeed per 20% clip/ammo missing.
(Per clip would need some tweaking as Crossbow instantly gets full power everytime you shoot.)

Fully agree with pretty much everything else👍

2 Likes

I was most definitely thinking only one proc per shot, so no benefit from a double headshot. I might be being too mean here, it’s probably uncommon enough to not make much difference either way.

Eh. WS would still get an effective ammo pool of 250 with Scrounger alone, and that’s not taking Kurnous into account. HM with extra ammo talent would have an effective ammo pool of 175. So yeah, I think they’d be fine with this restriction. The caps were very intentional, because otherwise they get too close to being ammo neutral, and if I made Scrounger every 6th or 7th ranged shot just to balance their ammo pools, it’d neuter the effect for everyone else. Scrounger for swift bow would be a 2.5 effective ammo increase even with the cap, so I really think they’d be fine.

Interesting idea, though it’s a bit too far for my tastes, and would leave few worthwhile ranged traits without an entire rework (though of course this would be very welcome).

Yeah it’s not ideal and reworking the talent entirely would probably be better. I was just suggesting stuff I thought would be relatively minimum work to change. I really like your idea for it though! Would be much much nicer to manage that way, and even have in built synergy with melee kill reload, since that talent would basically restore the max amount of ammo you can have while still having max stacks of last shot power. I’d probably go for 4% power & 3% AS per 20% ammo missing.

Cheers for adding your thoughts :grinning:

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Nah, from my experience, quite a lot of weapons can easily pierce horde mobs and would gain ammo very fast.

True enough, i reject my objection^^

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Generally not a fan of “every x, then y effect”

I mean… I takes some serious skill to make that last shot last forever with headshots :’)

But I do agree that the other ranged choices are subpar when compared with the perspective of having a few more shots to deal with specials

Ultimately, scounger is balanced by the amount of ammo the weapon has…

Can see where you are coming from though, and I can’t say I’d be too bothered to have the ranged careers be a bit more… specialised in that regard.

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I agree, it’s not as interactive as I’d like. I just went with it because I think consistency is important in a high skill ceiling game like this, and it was easier for me to math out and get a feel for how balanced it would be.

For sure, and part of my intention with those changes is to keep conservative shooter a favourable option in a lot of cases if you can keep your headshot rate high enough. I do think handgun, both longbows, crossbow, probably some others I’m forgetting can be made to go pretty ridiculously far with CS alone.

Indeed! I tried to retain that, and even extend it to CS. Again, the aim was just to chop off the top end of ammo generation, not to neuter it across the board. BH is the only ranged class that would be heavily affected. Maybe a handgun Merc with good aim wouldn’t have the sustain to solo every special in a Cata run with these changes, which I think would be a good thing.

Conservative shooter is a weird trait. On one hand headshots can be ‘impossible’ in this game, hunters having weird hs hitboxes sometimes, gas rats having their headshot in a weird place if you are not used to them, generally a bit harder to hs from super far away (unless familiar with distance indicator) or super close, in a game where you are the one sniping most the specials you will run out of ammo very quick, also depending on special spawns and personal skill.

On the other hand there can be times where you mostly get leeches, stormers, gunners, flamers, and those are just super easy to headshot, which will result in you never running out of ammo, untill you reach the next ammo supply pouch/crate.

Even if we take the 2 extremes and combine them, players will most likely miss some and hit some, and will probbably be fine on ammo’untill the next ammo supply.

What cs also allows is sniping elites with no drawbacks. I can snipe an entire ambient elite pack, if standing kinda far, as a whc with no ammo loss.

So either keep conservative shooter as it is and remove ammo pouches in item spawn locations, but only keep ammo crates at the beginning of events.
Or adjust conservative.

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Could just give Scrounger and Conservative Shooter a cooldown like they did with the Resourceful Combatant/Sharpshooter Traits.

In those two cases, the internal cooldown nerfs pretty much killed any interest in those traits.

There are different issues at work there. But the main reason most players lost interest in those traits is that the Ressourceful traits are kinda redundant as you can gain active skill cooldown by other means like killing enemies, getting damaged or just waiting. All of these things are available in near unlimited supply

Ammo on the other hand needs boxes or pouches and outside of these it is limited in supply. Even with a cooldown these traits would still be attractive. It would just stop spammy behaviour.

Most of these things are however topic for a more general trait rebalancing. They are kinda inconsistent and there is at least one over the top outlier.

Putting a CD on Conservative shooter would reduce spamminess with weapons under 30 ammo. (Usually the high damage weapons) those are the anti elite/special weapons. It would hinder them from being as spammy versus hordes, which i think is good, as it interferes with a Hordeclear weapons niche.

Putting a CD on Scrounger would mainly be a blow to anti Horde weapons, as they need a lot of ammo to be good at their job.
I think that would push people away from these weapons again. (I mean, I wouldnt want to take them, when the anti elite/special weapons usually are relatively effective vsHorde and have better ammo sustain)

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On the ‘Melee Swap Buff’ BH Talent:

They’ve just buffed an already strong Career, and I can’t really see why.

That Talent was already extremely strong, and the Melee Switch idea could have been made to work too.

They decimated that entire row by making it a must pick.

  • Ammo regen from Crit
  • Free ranged Crit on-demand
  • Free melee damage
  • no ICD (internal cooldown)

@alsozara

Yeah, sorry. I was planning on coming back to it.

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Ok yeah I agree it’s very strong now, but according to FS the old inspired shot had a low pick rate, so maybe it won’t be as overwhelming as you think?

Cruel Fortunes still seems like a pretty solid pick if you want to back line and focus on sniping from behind your frontliners. Prized Bounty is still one of your best picks for ammo conservation if you wanna run Hunter, or use Rep Pistol’s alt fire at all really. I guess we’ll see, but I agree the talent could probably use a drawback. @Incandescent’s idea of it remove the 10 second cooldown so you HAVE to melee kill to get it back seems like a very fair adjustment.

Edit: I also think the main problematic element is the interaction with Scrounger. If Scrounger were adjusted similar to my suggestion towards the top of the main post I don’t there’d be any issue with this talent at all.

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As a general rule, I don’t really value pick rates unless things are over or under performing. I mean, according to one of the older official threads Kruber is one of the least played heroes, despite probably being the best all rounder in the game due to his tankiness (maybe Huntsman’s difficulty was the reason why) .

Melee kill = Crit always seemed pretty solid to me, and like one of the better defensive Talents for making up for the low melee power. E.g. gives you the ability to dodge back and shoot Elites in the Horde you’re fighting (Crossbow). It was also the best pick for BoP, which is why I was so happy with the Weapon Switch Buff Talent’s synergy with the BoP build.

Sounds a lot fairer.

I agree.

3 Likes
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