Chaos wastes update feedback

Thanks, I didn’t know this, but I suspected something.

Since you quoted the previous version (maybe some forum formatting sorcery), I want to make sure that the knockback distance is a reduction. So if the monster has been knocked back for 100 cm (example number), it would be just 30 cm now.

Sorcery, I think. It’s Be’lakor at work

The former is often added on top of hordes/specials/map events etc, whilst for the latter you can activate it when you are clear of anything else. Archers trial is free but Sack Rat vote is even massively beneficial. I’m not going to further argue which is more daunting but they share the same trait; inconsistency. It’s nothing new or bad.

Idk what to say anymore when a trial is called unbeatable or bad end roll. To me that sounds too subjective but I understand that you’d find my words the same if I say otherwise. If you really find some of the trials can be unbeatable for everyone in a literal term, all I can say is that we should agree to disagree.

I want a boon that makes a barrel appear on the sky above the enemy every time you hit their left foot.
No game EVER told you to aim for the left foot, i been doing it voluntarily and having a blast, this would help others feel the same joy.

When we’re talking about something as subjective as our experiences, the solution I’m aiming for is to find some common ground by suggesting scenarios that you might agree are unwinnable and inconsistent with the intended difficulty. It’s hard for me to believe that our experiences can be so different that I can’t find a suggestion or a scenario that would form the foundation for some kind of consensus. I’ll quote a few here:

I hope some of the above get a response.

You can stonewall if you like, but if you’re as interested as I am in how such differing opinions could arise from playing the same game (and I do play it on Cataclysm too), perhaps you could try to meet me in the middle here and see what kind of experiences might form the basis for common ground.

You mention that there’s enough time between hordes for a chest of trials; to open maybe, but if you’re kiting them around, that takes some time. One situation I consider often unwinnable is when the disablers start spawning in while I’m the last one left and kiting around enemies. Sometimes I can tag them through elites and ensure enough stamina and dodge is left to push them or bait them out, but these are limited resources, and too many elites and specials are too many.

How many elites are unbeatable on Cataclysm for a single player with grey weapons?
How about with specials in the mix?
And at what point would it break the balance even if you never considered it unwinnable?
What is a situation that you think is unwinnable and how far off is mine?

These are questions all aimed at finding common ground.

In your case, perhaps so, but sometimes it’s easy for me to confuse a making a claim with ego when my suggestions and attempts to reach a middle ground are largely ignored. Some of the things I quoted earlier that boil down to the claim “just play well”, and in general, I’ve noticed what shapes my perspective of people online is that regardless of the veil of anonymity many get an ego boost from making some bold claim; especially in relation to what they’ve supposedly done or experienced.

Why would a Cata player find vault’s irrelevant? I don’t have all the red item skins yet, do you? I don’t focus on finding vaults but should the game be shaped around the experience of Cata players? I don’t think so; that would be something that applies to competitive games. If the reward doesn’t match the difficulty, that still indicates an inconsistency across the game that is not intended.

The above again reads like a bit of ego as such questions seem aimed at belittling me or demeaning my experience. Yeah, as I’ve already said, I’m aware that when I play Twitch Mode on Cata, it’s going to likely result in a literally unwinnable situation. That was part of my point earlier because nothing in the regular game mode should be so comparable to the unwinnable situations in Twitch Mode. I’ve never won a Twitch Mode game on Chaos Wastes without the team getting some nice OP boon combo, and I don’t think the regular Chaos wastes should be like that.

Even if that were true in my case, it’s not justification for the experiences of other players. The statement I made was hyperbole, I’m always going to open the chest of trials if every player is ready and not down, because odds are that we won’t end up in an unwinnable situation, but it does happen, and often enough that it’s just a risk I’m willing to take, but that doesn’t mean that’s I how I want the game to be or how it should be.

No, there are definitely things that are objectively consistent. The number of enemies does increase with each mission. The modifiers will make more enemies the further you progress in the wastes. If I’m correct, even the chests of trials will spawn more enemies further on in the wastes. The more difficult grudge marks are further on in the wastes.
The chest of trials, however, can easily overwhelm a team with no decent boons and grey weapons in a way that no other thing can in that difficulty and that game mode. Curses might, but only when you open a Chest of Trials, and I don’t think the solution is to always skip them on nasty curses because I don’t think they should so difficult that with a curse they end up being unwinnable.

Just because I’m willing to play it and enjoy the experience overall doesn’t mean I don’t find some things unpolished and frustrating.

This was a response to

This. It was hard for me to think that you were trying to find a common ground after that. You stone walled.

Your whole argument is based on your assumption that I’m posturing and not being honest, not based on my actual words. Just because our experience are different doesn’t mean one is wrong or lying. You keep defying my words based on false assumption, and at this point it sounds like nothing but an insult.

  1. Heavily depends on careers and the specific enemy. If not CWs, for Shade, BW, MWP RV and THT OE numbers of elites hardly matters as they can take out tens of them with ease. GK(assuming with str potion), Crunch Slayer, and flail UC can take out large sum of elites with ease too. In a team scenario, IB or SotT with Corus staff can pretty much erase any elite chunks. Berserkers can do nothing against Griffon. It’s hard to go through every instances, so unless given more specific condition my answer would be ‘irrelevant in the best case scenario, but only handful in the worst’.

  2. Again it’s hard to generalize. Need specific type of special and career. I can’t go through every instances because that’s too time consumimg. In the worst case scenario, two Hookrats or Assassines with chunks of elite can down one. For careers that can go invisible, it doesn’t matter. While Hookrats and Assassines are highly dangerous, Globadiers and Ratlings can be often ignored while taking out elites.

  3. Aside from whether it’s unwinnable or not, if broken balance, or unpleasant inconsistency if I may, is the topic, I find Rampart GM and Mass Entangle Twitch vote so for sure. I think if Chest of Trials were forced on me and I didn’t get to activate it when I wanted I would also find it very unpleasantly inconsistent, just like Patrol spawning on player’s face. I’d find those too out of control.

  4. For me unwinnable is an objective word, meaning 0% chance no matter what skill level, and we all know that there are people playing DWONS with Twitch on. If the given condition is impossible for the best of the best, I’d truly think that it is unwinnable. It’s not that I don’t think some things are too hard in general term; there are many things that are too hard in general term, I just don’t find most them the right example of being unwinnable. I suppose it’s more like the conception upon ‘unwinnable’ being different between you and me, rather than having totally different opinion on what’s hard or not.

I don’t see how that translated to stonewalling to you since I’ve been actively discussing each point that has been brought up. We can’t really draw much from our experiences when we come to different conclusions from similar situations. Both you and I seem to agree that we don’t need to say much more about what we experienced when playing the game insofar as we’ve already come to different conclusions. Where we can focus is where we might find common ground.

None of what I’ve said hinges upon you having been posturing the whole time. The walls of text going back and forth on my end have relatively little to do with that except to keep that sort of thing from further slowing down any real discussion.

The very fact I go back and quote myself is because the substance hasn’t been getting a response, just the stuff that ruffles feathers. In fact, in this quote from me, I was responding to you telling me you were not posturing to use this as an opportunity to explain why I might think that you are, even if you weren’t.

Also, even if one is bragging it doesn’t mean they’re automatically wrong. I recognize that, so I’ve been careful to explain why I disagree.

The point of the questions is that although there are a lot of factors, and that there are limits to what’s actually possible to win against. With the RNG heavy playstyle of the Chaos Wastes, I would expect to lose more often than not in quick play due to the nature of the game, and players to start going down to no fault of their own.

Where my definition would differ is concerning “no matter what skill level”. In many cases, I’m playing with players who are obviously new to legend or cataclysm; or simply are not taking the game as seriously as a guy like me who spends every ounce of free time after work playing the game. There are situations where I wouldn’t blame a player for going down because they didn’t pour an extra 500 hours into the game.

This is where I really think inconsistency matters. The general assumption I think is safe, is to say that Legend and Cataclysm in the Campaign should be comparable to what you could expect in the Chaos Wastes. We all know the Chaos Wastes can have some crazy RNG situations and that’s to be expected, but the win/loss ratio shouldn’t be so far off. I have been counting since this evening, I won 5/6 Campaign (one was The Enchanter’s Lair) of the Cataclysm Campaign games I played, and I’ve won 0/11 of the Chaos Wastes Cataclysm Campaign games I’ve played. It’s roughly one out of every 10 on Legend. I was also using off-meta builds in the campaign, whereas for Cataclysm Chaos Wastes, I stuck to the standard meta Grail Knight build which I’ve used the most.

The Chest of Trials isn’t even my focus anymore. The overall difficulty of the Chaos Wastes far exceeds what you can expect in the main game. I had one group which I played about 4 Cataclysm games with, one of them was the one I joined which was near the end, and I had 0 boons, yet I was last standing. I could tell I wasn’t the best player in the group; I had three players, all with over 1000 hours. I asked how often they actually win; the answer was about 5 or 6 out of 30 which I’d imagine is a generous number given how things were going, and the other two said they lost the vast majority, and they were the ones with the most hours. All of them agreed that Legend Chaos Wastes is more difficult than Cataclysm Campaign missions.

I have paid special attention to these details the past several games I’ve played because of how active I’ve been in the forums and not really finding the experiences or claims of others line up with the experience I’m having and the experiences of those I play with.

Why did you ask these questions, if you were not going to respond to most of my answers? I was trying to give specific examples in my answers so that we can agree upon a certain condition that is too hard, or in your term, unwinnable. I’d like your feedbacks on those so that we can find a common ground.

This can happen because or regional difference.

The questions were obviously rhetorical in the first place, but I did respond. There are 4 large paragraphs, each related to your points. What’d I miss, because it looks like you didn’t respond to much of what I wrote?

There is also little to be gained by you giving detailed answers to these questions since there’s a wide range of factors that go into what constitutes an unwinnable situation. I did respond to that.

That’s probably true, and it could more relevant where I am concerned because it’s early morning now and I’m up all night some days because of medical issues. Insofar as that is the case, we can’t relate, but I don’t know that is the case.

There is one point I keep bringing up that gets passed over, and I can tell you a lot of what I’m writing is just to back up this one point:

Is the reason why I was trying to narrow down to the point where we can talk in more specific way, because as of now you are keep saying ‘It really is unwinnable based on my experience’ and I’m saying ‘Not so in my experience’. Better find what specific experience we are referring to than repeating our points which obviously aren’t persuasive to each other because we have different experience.

I understand now that when you call something unwinnable it considers who plays it as well. In that case some instances can be winnable while it’s not so to the other groups. That isn’t entirely about the game then, and it’s hard to generalize and call something unwinnable since you get different people in quickplay. Is Convo a hard map? Yes. Does that mean inconsistency? Yes. Is it unwinnable? I’ve seen many people clamining that Cata Convo is insane and unwinnable. I don’t find that true and you probably wouldn’t either. See, your concept of unwinnable is camplaicated to discuss about because it includes the skill level of people playing it which is variable, not constant. This is why I want to focus more on inconsistency than whether something is unwinnable or not.

I agree. I really do, so there is not much else I can add. When I first replied on your comments it was about the inconsistency of Chest of Trials, not CW as a whole.

I don’t think it’s good to narrow it down if we leave out instances that are relevant. When dealing with specific instances like the ones you mentioned above, we might agree, but I don’t find many of them relevant, because in many instances I’ve encountered are not covered. That’s why you notably said a few times it’s hard to generalize. We’d need specific numbers and there are too many possible combinations of specials/elites/players and scenarios in general to derive much meaning from specific numbers unless we could provide all of that.

The point of that kind of questioning was aimed at the fact there must be some situations that you consider unwinnable. I read through your 4 responses and there’s not a single instance that you deemed unwinnable unless I misunderstand what you’re trying to say. To me, it reads like you’re giving specific situations that you do think are winnable, and/or just saying that it’s “heavily dependent” or “hard to generalize”. Besides the fact I don’t have a specific instance you think is unwinnable, we are discussing the other relevant points.

In fact, it’s probably too difficult to discuss. Your definition is more simple to apply, but I can’t say it’s necessarily useful because for something to be too difficult for the best team in the world doesn’t mean that it’s not too difficult for what it’s supposed to be. I’d say it’s supposed to be shaped around the average player that ques for that experience; note, that doesn’t mean that a player who is average or above should win every time, it means that they shouldn’t be losing the vast majority of the time.

It’s harder to compare the Chest of Trials outside the CW, but I’ve never felt the trials were right. They were consistent before grudge marks were added, but usually a bit easy; only challenging during horde in early missions.

Just a bit ago, we fought a grudge-marked minotaur with Warchief on the first mission of the Chaos Wastes with elites spawning in to do the Chest of Trials. That’s more difficult than facing elites and a monster in the Campaign Cataclysm game by a large margin since you won’t have any good items, and maybe one boon.

Now Trial Chests aren’t in the Campaign, but the only Cataclysm games I’ve won since Grudge Marks were added (and according to these others I played with) the games won were those in which the RNG favored the team; that is, that we had decent boons and didn’t happen to run into a situation we couldn’t handle too early. The Chaos Wastes is supposed to be more of an RNG playstyle, but if people are almost never able to win without a stack of good boons, then the Chest of Trials is nearly essential to winning. I think it’s become even more now with the additional difficulty of Grudge Marks. If the Chest of Trials is nearly essential to winning, the trials themselves shouldn’t be much more difficult than anything you’d expect to encounter in the Cataclysm Campaign, yet they seem to be.

The banners are probably little bit too hard especially for legend level of play. Personally nearly every wipe I’ve had on cata lobbies to banners has started with 1-2 players going full ape or brainfarting.
For example I’ve had HMs dashing between 5 banner bearers and getting insta gibbed or players forcefully going after banners even tough we had good control of the banner horde.
Surprisingly many also don’t consider any kind of positioning before opening the challenge box and just stand next to the spawning circles.

While I definitely agree it might be little bit too hard currently, especially on lower difficulties, it is also a mod the reveals how bad the teamwork aspect for most of the community is.

All we’d need to provide would be the numbers we each find comfortable with, compare them with the number of enemies Chest of Trials spawn, and see how that can be adjusted in a way we can both agree as adequate. Yes we’ll need to go through each numbers of enemies, might be tidius work, but it’s probably the best way to find a common ground because numbers are solid.

I agree that there are instances for that, so I’m suggesting we use ‘too difficult’ instead of ‘unwinnable’ to prevent further disagreement over a word.

Beating Chest of Trials does help but it’s far from being essential. There’s less merit for beating it now as they don’t necessarily spawn monsters, meaning no coin rewards. Random boon costs only 150 after 4.7, and many of the op pre-boons are now bound to weapon traits. You don’t need to rely on Chest to get powerful enough for the last event in CW, nor it would necessarily make you so for beating it. Skipping a Chest is a solid tactic and I do often suggest that we do so. ‘No’ works, especially when we are in a nasty condition.

I find challenging every Chests can be related to challenging Patrols whenever some people see one. It’s often done because they want to do so, not necessarily to increase the possibility of beating the level.

So there’s probably a way to figure out exactly how many enemies spawn from a Chest of Trials. That’d probably be a good place to start.

As for the trial chests, in my experience, I haven’t found a single team willing to skip one, but that’s a moot point since I’m not interested in skipping them either, and failure, as a result, is expected sometimes. However, even after the most recent changes, I haven’t had a single win yet on Cataclysm, and it’s roughly 1/10 for Legend, and of those wins, even on Legend, it’s been games where the boon stacking worked in our favor and we were lucky to avoid nasty scenarios. Once again, we have different experiences that don’t line up. From what I gather, passing up even one Chest of Trials could set you back enough that the next mission becomes too difficult.

We should be able to agree that getting some decent boons early on gives you better odds later, and give better odds of success in Chests of Trails later on, so the first two missions of Cataclysm Chaos Wastes are often the bottleneck point. The utility of the Chests of Trials is most critical early on. You might be able to skip one later, but at that point, not having it makes sure the second or third mission will be that much more difficult. By the end of wastes, if you’ve missed too many because most early maps were nasty curses or bad situations, you’re most likely going to lose.

A simple question that doesn’t require tedious work might be, about how many Cataclysm games in the Chaos Wastes do you win out of 10 attempts? Is it the boons that typically make the difference?

Which trial and which difficulty do you need?

I usually play Cata Twitch CW with the people I know. Winning rate would be roughly around 50%.

About normal Cata CW QP, you need to understand that where I play, when I play Cata, I almost certainly end up playing with people I know. Not tons of Cata players here, only those who are dedicated remains. So QP isn’t whole lot different from premade. We hardly fail on normal Cata CW, and it is just a way to gather people so that we can launch a Twitch mode for the next game.

The bottleneck point in my experience is when the weapon updrade shows up. Even if you haven’t got any broken boons, if you have the right weapon with good quality, normal Cata CW can be pulled off. Things go south if your team haven’t got any good boons, and on top of that, there hasn’t been a good weapon upgrades till late game, and people start gambling their weapon and gets off-meta ones.

I don’t recall the names, but I’d like to know how many bannermen and bestigors spawn on Cataclysm from whichever one spawns those two. I believe sometimes with +monsters it also throws in a minotaur.

Well, I think we might have both regional differences and maybe some other things going on. When I play Cataclysm, I rarely see players I’ve seen before, but it is a small pool of players so I occasionally get the same ones. I’d say prior to this update, but after Grudge Marks were added the win rate was about 1 in 15. I often find players under 35, and people new to the challenge, or just not fully aware of the game mechanics. I’ll often end a game with GK having the most special kills, I’m assuming because ranged can’t hit them in the head and/or hit them at all often enough to kill them.

Now, here’s something interesting though. I do seem to win Cataclysm in Campaign more often than, or at about the same rate as Legend, even though I play it less often. I think this is typically because the players I find playing Cataclysm in the Campaign mode are generally better. Another reason might be I play Legend in the Campaign without curse resistance, and people there often are trying to get books. At this point, I’m just interested in skins that come often enough for me not to worry about Grimoires anymore, so I don’t even bother with curse resist.

Also, I’ll extend an invitation to anyone here to join me when I’m playing. There are just not enough people who regularly play Cataclysm for me to even try it out. My friends all play other games, and they’re not on often enough since we all moved to different places after the military.