It can occur in areas where there isnt any room to escape the effect, particularly so in the chaos wastes, and while that is less of a problem with good boons and weapons…well.
Still too much of an extreme difference in what spawns, especially on the first couple of maps.
I know, but I am talking from that perspective: first two maps, cata, all different environments - and I have not encountered the situation where it was impossible. I would not exclude their existence, but all the defeats were due to people pushing through the mass to the banners instead of forcing them to move the banners.
The Bannermen just follow you when you have to kite around bestigors, and kiting won’t get you far without boons to help with dodge count and stamina. Also, I’ve had this one in tight spaces and hallways on the illusion map, and Holsher’s Tower. I successfully kited them around constantly avoiding the banner being moved up to my position on Belakor’s Temple after activating one of the shadow alters caused a wave a bannermen and bestigors to appear, but I had a few decent stamina boons from prior maps, besides two assassins and two flame rats which I was lucky to kill, I was on my own while the other only decent player was kiting around in the opposite direction, I could’ve easily been taken out by an embedded hook rat in the narrow hall leading down, or by an assassin embedded in the horde of elites.
Everything you said has already been addressed. At least acknowledge that there is a massive inconsistency between the difficulty of Chests of Trials, and that is not indicative of working design. On the other end of the spectrum, you have chests that spawn like 6 black rats with shields and little rats with shields, or beastmen chaff like archers. I don’t mind there being some randomness to difficulty in the Chaos Wastes, but it should build to the difficult stuff as it does with boons, and each mission’s waves, curses, and frequency of elites and specials. You can get overwhelming trials early on and easy ones later on.
You can base your strategy on what the team has, but if the selected talents and weapons don’t even match (e.g. melee kills for temp health with a weak blunt weapon) or the players don’t have level 35, or they just don’t fully understand the game, then you’re not always gonna have a great time when you run into an extreme difficulty spike. I’ve had an easier on Twitch mode Cataclysm because they were excellent players.
You have basically confirmed what I said. Play smart and you will make it, unless you are really unlucky. That includes playing according to what you have.
And no-one is questioning that the chest can be very difficult, especially at the first two maps - feel free to skip it if you cannot cope.
Well, as said you could simply chose to skip early Chests. No, that one boon less is not fundamental for your strength and do not end up weak.
Also, the difficulty of the Chests is career dependent. Before the update you had the easiest time with boss killers. Now after the update other careers have each their own Trials they shine at. Ratling Gunners sieving the team? Not if I have an Ironbreaker with shield. Same for the Banner spam, if you have a tank with shield you can do a lot even on a small scale. On the flip side, these events are harder for the monster killer. So, it isnt that some events are more difficult per se but more difficult or less difficult depending on team composition. Ungor Archers is always easy though. Oh, also concerning the banners. Have they removed the pushback upon breaking them? It feels somehow different than before.
However, what I wanted to add of value is that to a certain degree you can assess what kind of Trial you get from the chests. It is not completely random.
They do spawn according the map factions do they not? …Well not that it helps terribly much.
Not only that. Certain positive modifiers (+Elites, +Specials, + Monster) do significantly decrease the potential Trial pool. +Monster modifiers for example will guarantee that you get a monster from the chest.
Would you like to know more?
Section 5b. Yes, shameful self-advertising.
oh that´s good stuff to know , i´ll take a look^^
The knowledge of what’s likely to spawn isn’t common knowledge, nor have I ever played with a party so aware of their own experience that they wouldn’t attempt a Chest of Trials just to up the chances of survival unless they’re the last party member standing.
All this doesn’t quite excuse the lack of inconsistency here. I don’t mind the difficult trials ramping up with difficulty as the maps progress, but that’s not what’s usually happening.
That said, I originally agreed that I prefer the way Trial Chests function now to the way they were before. That doesn’t mean they don’t have some wrinkles to iron out. Even with the information provided, it’s not enough to know if you’re going to get beaten or not unless your entire team is willing to not open early game chests of trials.
When does “really unlucky” cross over to “poorly balanced”, and it happens fairly commonly that a chest of trials will spawn an unbeatable horde early on. I might feel free to skip, but the team won’t. I’m joining quick play games with other hosts, and I tend to follow the hosts lead.
Using terms like “play smart”, “cope” and “unlucky” implies that you can always “skill” your way out aside from a few outliers. It’s just gamer ego nonsense, and I don’t think any of that is fully true. For the Chaos Wastes, the challenge now spikes to far exceeds that of one’s expectations. It’s a flaw, plain and simple.
Consistent refusal to acknowledge that there are wild variances in difficulty that one can’t fully anticipate is evidence to me that you’re serving me vain rhetoric by defending a new unrefined game mechanic. None of your advice helps allay that issue, it’s just narcissistic.
Which particular challenge do you have in mind that makes the trial unbeatable and poorly balanced? I’m not saying that they are very consistent but that is kinda the point of Roguelikes, the same way boons aren’t consistent. I’d agree with you if some trials were genuinely unbeatable because inconsistency of that level can only hurt our gaming experience, but atm I don’t recall an occasion where that is true, so I think it would be more helpful if you suggest the specific case.
As I’ve been talking about, the worst offender is the bannermen and bestigor horde, second is the two grudge marks. Under certain circumstances, in early missions, these can be unbeatable.
Let me elaborate a few conditions with a few conditions that’ve happened to me recently, examples that are not uncommon: Beastmen hordes with bestigors and bannermen chest on Khorne curse having buffing champions. Bestigor and beastmen chest mission #1. Tzeentch lightning curse with Bestigors and Bannermen chest of trials, turning rat hordes into specials on mission #2. Very nice. Skulls curse courtesy of Belakor while kiting a swarm of Bannermen and Bestigors mission #1 These all happened in mission numbers 1 and 2.
These were on Legend, and I had just finished playing some campaign missions with easy victories on Cataclysm. There were players in the group (myself included) with 1000+ hours. That’s a point at which I consider the difficulty spike too high.
There’s also the stupidly easy Trials where you kill like 6 elites and it’s over with no curse. Maybe we should skip chests of trials on certain curses, knowing we have beastmen with +specials or +elites, but have you convinced a quick-play team not to do it?
Yeah I can feel you, that surely can be bad. Although I wouldn’t call it unbeatable or unfair, because on early games even with +horde modifier you have enough time window between hordes to activate chest and beat it, and after the rescent nerf on Flagmen comp, at least on PC, they aren’t much more of a problem than other elite compositions imo, as long as one doesn’t activate it during Beastman hordes, in which case I’d say he is the cause of defeat rather than the chest itself. Not that Khorne buffed elite comps are easy in any way; it’s just that Khorne buff curse is just one of the nasty curses, and it’s supposed to be hard, just like Khorne buffed patrol or Twitch elite votes, which is why I think the issue isn’t really about the chest.
I’d expect people to learn that they need to pay extra care for activating chests when in Khorne elite buff curse map. It’s been only few weeks after the release, so it’s natural that people aren’t fully aware of the danger it contains.
It’s unbeatable for your average Legend quick-play crew, just like Cataclysm Twitch mode is. I don’t really care what other people call unbeatable or unfair because, from my perspective, it doesn’t matter; that all just sounds like posturing to me. Weighing one person’s subjective experiences against my own isn’t changing my mind. I know that when a chest of trials summons more bannerman than are in a beastmen patrol, that doesn’t seem like how it’s supposed to be. It’s obvious that every aspect of the game is harder as the progress of the mission, but where Trial Chests are concerned, that is not the case. It’s egregiously easier and more difficult in no particular order.
People can’t seem to make an honest comparison, Khorne buffed patrols offer no reward like chests and they are often smaller (on Legend at least) than what comes out of a bestigor+bannerman Trial Chest during a Khorne curse; particularly with something like +specials or +elites. I have a far easier time on a Cataclysm campaign mission than I do on Legend Chaos Wastes cursed map with certain Trial chests; maybe that’s the way it’s supposed to be but doesn’t seem fair to me.
You might expect people to learn that they need to pay extra attention to all the map modifiers, and curse effects as they relate to chests of trials, but that’s a tall order for your average ‘quick-play player’, and nowhere else in the game is detailed decision making an issue, and I doubt most Legend players are even aware that the modifiers affect the Trials.
I actually think the Bestigor+Bannermen trial shouldn’t necessarily be removed, perhaps just reduce the number to the size of a patrol in that difficulty rating, and/or put the more difficult trials ahead and the easier ones early on. The scaling seems so far off.
Another suggestion: just simplify things for most players by putting a risk indicator on the chest of trials. For many, this is a simple game with simple objectives and simple UI. If there were a risk indicator over each trial chest based on the trial effects caused by the map modifiers, the curse, and other factors that should be known to a player anyway, then that could help players make informed decisions about the risks. Just have the threat indicator show a simple Low, Medium, or High for potential difficulty warning when you mouse over the chest.
Another thing, there is no way I’m ever going to NOT try to beat a chest of Trials. My expectation outside of Twitch Mode is that if I AND the team do well enough, we will always be able to win. By now we should well know, that if you que for Twitch Mode, you’re possibly going to end up in an unwinnable situation no matter how good your team is. I’ve played with some I’d consider among the best in Twitch Mode, and we lost about 3 games before we one a Twitch Mode on Cataclysm in the Chaos Wastes after the first Grudge Mark update.
No one’s been posturing. I was sharing thoughts just like you. If you don’t want to hear it, how would you expect others to hear yours?
You are talking of these quick-play players who can be literally anyone and saying that
This can’t be expected because your quick-play team, as you know, isn’t a constant. ‘Playing well’ also isn’t a clear standard for anything. The expectation isn’t achievable unless the game suggests absolutely no challenge which will make it just boring. So what we are looking for is rather ‘adequate’ level of challenge which inevitably contains some possibility of defeats, and you should be ready for it when you decide to play it.
Whether the level of challenge is truly adequate or not is a subjective matter which you don’t want to hear from the others so I’ll say no more of it.
Yes, and I think the average quick-play crew’s failure rate is a good metric for what I’d consider well balanced to that difficulty. If they’re failing 9/10, in my estimation, that’s not good. How often should they fail for it to be considered challenging? Should they have to encounter situations that are unwinnable for it to be “fun” in your estimation?
If the above is not posturing, at the very least it’s basically irrelevant and subjective. If you’re making a point about how difficult it is, you don’t need to assert that, “I can do it” or “I don’t find it unbeatable”. You can just explain why, anything else detracts from how seriously I can take it.
I have been reading closely and responding to the points made. I have yet to receive a response to the point that the difficulty of Trial Chests lacks consistency with every other game mechanic.
You don’t think this is a problem? ^^
Oh…
Neither is “playing smart”, you saying “I can do it”; you should see the hypocrisy. In my case, allow me to rephrase, being able to easily complete Cataclysm campaign missions doesn’t translate as I’d expect to being able to complete Legend Chaos Wastes missions; usually where it concerns Chests of Trials.
I don’t expect to win every time, this is irrelevant because I’m talking about the inconsistency in difficulty with chests of trials and comparing Legend Chaos Wastes to Cataclysm Campaign; and you can’t “be ready” for unbeatable.
Challenge != You must encounter unwinnable situations.
Your experiences and mine might differ on what’s considered “unwinnable” (even saying that sounds like I’m responding to one who is posturing), but it’s pretty easy to see what I’m talking about when you face challenges so drastically different and inconsistent; especially when weighed against the rewards. The old Chaos Wastes pre-grudge marks were not so challenging; it was an easy 3 emperor’s vaults on Legend; now things have gone in the opposite direction a bit too far; now it’s far easier to obtain emperor’s vaults from the campaign. Would you not agree that the difficulty of Chests of Trials is not consistent with the difficulty scaling in other areas of the game?
That was just a point.
If I made a point and said nothing else to explain it than you may call it irrelevant but I made sure you know why I’ve said so. It was to make it clear rather than distractive of what I was trying to say. Isn’t making a point and explaining it such a common way to express thoughts? Yes I don’t like unwinnable cases as well, no I don’t think that is what Legend Chest of Trial throws at you and I think so for said reasons, nor do I think that even if it were that’s the game’s fault because,
this is a decision you’ve made.
I’ve been answering based on the fact that you are a Cata player as you’ve said earlier, who would find valuts irrelevant. If you want vaults, then everything I’ve said is irrelevant. In the risk and rewards perspective, assuming that the rewards mean vaults in this occasion, you are right. Consistency is very important because if you lose because of bad luck, you get extra stressful for lost rewards. In that perspective I’d say it’s suffice to say that CW, especially Chest of Trials, is overly inconsistent. I agree and respect that view.
However, level of inconsistency, while it can be a negative thing for some, can mean quite the opposite for the others. You’ve said you do play Cata Twitch. Don’t you play it just for fun? Didn’t Twitch have such inconsistency, and aren’t you familiar with it? I mean, look at the votes; 8~16 CWs vs 10 sack rats. Nothing consistent here. That’s part of the fun it contains, as well as the possiblity of defeat, which some people may willingly take. In this perspective, the level of inconsistency Chest of Trials has isn’t so much more than what the game already had.
8-16 chaos warriors in a fairly normal run is a faaaaar less daunting prospect than the same number but with white weapons and no stats or boons to help i´d say though.
Having a few challenges that are there to just be like a “bad end roll” or a “free pass” if you get them early feels kinda off.
Thanks for the update!
By the way, marks aside, how tougher a grudge marked monster is? I don’t think I’ve found it anywhere.
Also, have you got any idea if the miracle of grimnir (which I seem to remember gives 2x health and damage to a monster) applies to the first monster spawned in a map or if it spawns a separate one with those modifiers?
I ask because by shooting a loot-rat with tzeench we got 2 ratogres, and one of them was tougher and gave us the grimnir bonus.
That is the kind of technical information I usually let out of my guides as I don’t see the gameplay relevance in most cases. I always wonder what does it help if you know how much more health a monster has. Does it change the players decision/behaviour? That aside, looking up the forum (am new to scavenging through codes, it is probably there somewhere as well) resulted in these values:
+ 50 % More Health
+ 20 % More Damage
- 70 % Knockback Distance
And after thinking more about it, at least the last point is gameplay relevant as it means that ledging is far more difficult than for normal monsters. So, I might add it to the Section. Also found the section in the code. The values are still correct.
For the Grimnir question I have to pass. Health is not double as far as I remember, that would be overkill. I “think” it is always the first monster to spawn. Not sure if monsters spawning by curses do influence this.