Can we really balance weapons and classes at this point?

Hi,
seeing so much discussion about attack speed nerf, Crit chance and swift slaying, can we really expect to balance reliably the game, without taking first a look at the plagued property and trait system?

If all adjustment are made to comply with swift slaying uptime should the Dev first focus on proposing new traits and properties, as well as rework existing ones?

By increasing the number of build available, it would decrease the reliance on SS and not go for generic crit chance and speed adjustments.

When the game was released, it was promoted as being able to build a team where everyone as a role. But instead we ever get generic jack of all trade builds, but in higher difficulty where dedicated roles are more criticals.

There is now so few breakpoint, that even if you chose a different weapon, you will end up with the same pool of talent and traits. Sure you have different swing pattern, but the game has become so much left spammy that it doesn’t make a huge difference.

Anyway that s my thoughts. Have a great day.

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The main reason everyone needs to be a jack of all trades is the game does not permit you to stay in a nice neat little stack. Bosses, blightstorms, gas, packmasters, chaos warriors, many of these things either force you to split up or are best dealt with by kiting around.

If you need another player to ‘tank’ for you, or someone else to kill armor for you, these situation essentially become failure conditions. Specialization is more of a player role thing, and different weapons and careers can lean more one way or another, but any good loadout can and should be able to contribute to most situations.

As for breakpoints I am honestly not a fan and kind of wished the power vs properties on gear were done away with, if nothing else that would make balancing easier for fatshark perhaps.

Finally, a trait rework has been in demand for a long time now, but clearly they have other priorities in mind currently. So until that happens balancing around swift slaying makes sense as generally speaking it is the only useful trait.

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Opportuniste give nice breakpoints on stagger too.

Breakpoints force you to make choices and not be a jack of all trade. And while in certain difficulty it is possible to be one, when difficulty ramps up, you just cannot be everywhere and alone. You need someone to create space and someone blasting specials and you do not have time or ressources to switch.

This is not enforced in all difficulty and that s quite sad. It is the biggest culprit about why tank class and shields are not used properly and feels underwhelming.

I saw someone in DR thread mentioning it but tanks in this game are here to create space and deal with horde. Not to soak damage.

All in all this need to build properly should be enforced in more difficulty to allow for more diversity. If not generic builds will persist and the balance will achieve almost nothing since people will stick to the jack of all trade weapons: ie s&d, Rapier, exe, dual hammer, fire sword…

What I agree on, on the other hand, is that with the current crafting system, going for breakpoints is a pain, making them not appealing.

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Well part of the problem if the game required too much specialization, is it really negatively impacts quickplay games. If I quickplay into a cataclysm game as kruber and I don’t have a shield, well, I’m just taking up the ‘tank’ player’s slot. What you’re asking for would actually reduce build diversity, if all cataclysm games required shields.

Going further into shields specifically though, there has never been an experience as unfun to me as when I got split from my team due to a blightstorm and had to fight a large number of elites. Yes, I was controlling them very nicely, but I also felt like I was drowning.

I for one don’t want a game where you become helpless as soon as ‘the sniper’ gets hit by an assassin, or ‘the tank’ gets dragged off by a packmaster.

Yes I understand that. But then why make a team game if you are expected to do everything alone. And how to balance difficulty if you are expected to succeed alone or with 4 players…

This is not because it is PvE that some basic PvP team game don’t apply. You are not expected to solo carry there. But it can happen. And yes that lead to blame the team and toxicity. But do you really need that to get toxicity and teammate blames?

Btw I have never said that all game should require a shield. Any time of crowd control works fine… > BW with flame sword has the most amazingly busted crowd control/clear and tool to make space in the game so it is effectively the best tank in the game…

Well consider that executioner sword is a jack of all trades weapon, but it also has incredible single target burst damage to kill elites/armor. In group play you ‘specialize’ by having the xsword target elites inside the horde while someone else makes space. Or conversely if there is a dagger shade then she can burst elites while xsword creates space.

Teamwork is something that you do as players through communication and skill, it’s not something that’s hard built into the careers themselves. This is a good thing because instead of a simple RPG game where you ‘build’ a tank or a DPS hero, what you do is entirely based on your personal skill and teamwork.

But that s exactly why exe needed that nerf.
And sorry but no. You can see it when all the frontline take a range weapon to kill the same special. It works because often the difficulty allow it. But this is not a good habit.

And again teamwork is about everyone having a role and Beijing good at a task. There is not teamwork is you are expected to solo carry. And beside, that s exactly what you can see in legend and cata : players going on their own…

What you call simple RPG is far better: you exploit strength and weaknesse of your build and your team. The skill resides in making it work.
Here everything is flatenened. There is no skill because you can do everything with likely odds. You can win alone or with teammate. No teamwork required.

And where is the skill in your suggestions where you have no difficulty spike because you can handle all situation equally?

So your suggestions for balance is all weapon should have ap and cc. And differt only by animation and look?

All weapons already do have cc and ap, just different amounts. Also your complaint now sounds more like the difficulty is just too low, which is a different problem really. If the difficulty gets too high all 4 players trying to shoot the same special will end up causing problems. If you can seriously solo the entire game yourself on cata… then go play deathwish onslaught mode.

I m not that skilled. But yes cats did not deliver it’s promise and same situation occurs where you seek modded realm for difficulty and thus improve but where so few people want to go, because no loot…
But that s not the subject.

Ok so why would you choose masse and shield against exe, with your reasoning?

The game, especially on higher difficulty, does not favor shields because it lowers the teams killing speed which can result in elites piling up. This is just a balance problem around shields, and it’s difficult to solve because the weapon already makes you very hard to kill.

The only reason I ever consider taking a shield is because they can stagger plague monks when built properly. This can make an event like old haunts finale SIGNIFICANTLY easier, especially in pug games where people have alot of difficulty with plague monks.

One last thing I should mention is, due to the massive hordes in this game the idea of ‘tanking’ is fundamentally flawed. Unless you are standing in a chokepoint there is no way for you to protect other players from enemies. If you stand there like a wall blocking 3 chaos warriors, the other 7 chaos warriors will still go attack your team, and is why all players need to be able to defend themselves. If you cannot damage armor and a chaos warrior is attacking you, you are simply a liability to your team as you are forcing them to do more work.

Exactly so you choose to take a shield against all it’s weakness because it is the king against berserkers while knowing it is a hindrance most of the time. But you have teammates that can destroy hordes and specials for you. So it s fine.

Ok another example, without shield: 2h sword against exe.

Or S&S against s&D?

Regarding chaos warrior example and tanking: if you give strong ranged character an opportunity to fire without risking their life , this 3 chaos warrior will never be a threat. But let s say there are enough to force you out of your chock point (and there are numerous of them) at this point if you get isolated, your dps go down significantly anyway. And because nobody was great against them in a first place is a greater liability because you were pushed in a very difficult situation.

Let s be honest if you proc a chaos patrol without preparations. Most of the team once isolated cannot deal with them. And they often do not protect the only one who could…

Another good example is fortune of war and how valuable the few seconds of Bardin taunt can be to defeat the chaos wave with almost no difficulty

Those are much easier. 2h sword has much greater mobility than xsword and can be used rather easily to kite enemies. It is also very effective against mixed horde and multiple armor units. The main reason in my opinion why that weapon is used less often is the attack pattern is boring and the slower attack speed means it requires more skill to use well.

Dual swords are actually my favorite elf dual weapon, and synergise very well with shade. They also have much better temp hp generation if you’re using crit or cleave thp. The increased cleave/stagger provided by the high crit rate also makes the weapon much safer to use.

As for chaos warriors, or any other kind of threat for that matter, if your specialist is under pressure or indeed dead, do you honestly think the game should just end there? There are player respawns for a reason. If you can’t handle different enemy types on your own or as a group of 2, then the game will always end when one player dies.

So in both case you are a liability for your team since you can’t deal with chaos warrior or monsters well… Based on your argument.

And indeed I think 2 is the bear minimum.
We did most onslaugh maps in duo. One frontline and one range. And most of the time range death was game over. Tank could manage to push it’s way in.

Doing some more onslaugh with 4, we are observing the same pattern. We have tried without specialist. And that went very wrong.
And this is something you can experience in hypertwitch as well

Returning to OP, this beta probably exists because someone else did most of the work for FS.
With the 4 upcoming carreers and Chaos Wastes, I doubt anyone at FS has time to identify where to begin and how to approach this, given the amount of garbage various forums produce and for some unknown reason they seem to be sulking about it, and then still just go and do their own sh*t anyway.
They are probably more invested in money making than going back to work on stuff we already paid for.

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Is this really the op? ^^

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