# Buffing pyromancer
**URL:** https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960
**Category:** Gameplay Feedback
**Created:** [November 2, 2020, 6:27am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960 "2020-11-02T06:27:32Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 4
### Author:  [@Raichu](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Raichu)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2020, 9:25pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960/62 "2020-11-03T21:25:56Z")
UC has. 15% AS in one talent too which Pyro has to use 3 talents to match with UCs 1 plus passive ignore overheat slowdown.
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### Author:  [@DVD.exe](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/DVD.exe)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2020, 10:53pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960/63 "2020-11-03T22:53:51Z")
> [@anon75893681](#):
>
> Categorising her as the melee sienna is just wrong in my opinion.
And categorizing her as just the ranged class when she’s exceptionally versatile is causing confusion and threads like this.
She just ain’t what she started out as. FS changed their minds about her. She’s not the “ranged class” she’s just a high dps.
Edit: there was supposed to be a whole extra sentence there 😕. But, yeah, high crit chance dps.
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### Author:  [@alsozara](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/alsozara)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2020, 11:15pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960/64 "2020-11-03T23:15:03Z")
> [@SirKruber](#):
>
> These paths were then outlined as:
> -Melee focused
> -Ranged focused
> -Jack of all Trades (meaning they are sufficient at both, master of none)
Literally at no point in the game’s life was that an accurate breakdown for the 3 careers of every character. It was always more like melee, ranged, and survivability class.
Honestly though let’s be happy that model was abandoned as it’s extremely limiting and honestly pretty boring. So Pyro’s identity is more grounded in crits than melee or ranged? I fail to see any issue with that.
> [@SirKruber](#):
>
> Unfortunately, with all of the talent changes, nothing separates the careers anymore except for cosmetics and a few unique active abilities.
Wow strongly disagreed here. In the early days most of the talents were straight passives that barely impacted playstyle. Now we have a myriad of more powerful talents but with specific triggers that encourage a certain playstyle. Not to mention the general awful balance in the early days the left only a handful of meta builds. I don’t think class variety has ever been better than it is now honestly. I really can’t understand where you’re coming from on this one.
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### Author:  [@Incandescent](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Incandescent)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2020, 11:18pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960/65 "2020-11-03T23:18:19Z")
casual reminder that very early on in the game’s life cycle there were a ton of talents that were just straight copy pasted across careers and characters
Talent design is still in a pretty questionable spot but it’s better than it was a little over a year ago
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### Author:  [@SirKruber](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/SirKruber)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2020, 9:20am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960/66 "2020-11-04T09:20:24Z")
> [@anon75893681](#):
>
> Pyro didn’t get any new attack speed talents as far as i know. Martial study and one with the flame were there before if i remember correctly.
Obviously. Was talking about pre-launch when Fatshark announced Unchained. People expected a melee power house with attack speed buffs. That is why I said, “expected.” Hence when the game came out and found Pyro with what appeared to be UC’s talents, a lot of people were disappointed/flabbergasted.
Also, UC’s passives didn’t work on launch so she was basically useless
> [@alsozara](#):
>
> Wow strongly disagreed here. In the early days most of the talents were straight passives that barely impacted playstyle.
Most of the talents are still passive abilities and 3 of the 6 talent rows are basically the same for every career versus 2 out of 5 at launch that were similar.
On Launch: EVERY career had a THP and ultimate talent row
Now: EVERY career has a THP, stagger, and ultimate talent row
That’s literally HALF of all of the talent rows! How is that unique?
> [@alsozara](#):
>
> Not to mention the general awful balance in the early days the left only a handful of meta builds.
Range meta only lasted 2 months. Fatshark did remove it as fast as they could.
Unfortunately, they can not stop people from abusing exploits due to the game’s engine. Hence why it took longer to fix Machine Gun Kruber.
> [@alsozara](#):
>
> I don’t think class variety has ever been better than it is now honestly.
Because 3 of the 6 talent rows are basically carbon copies of each other. That’s HALF of all available talents. Most other games that have different race/class choices have passive and active abilities that are not copied or shared with another. Each race/class are all different.
But compared to how the careers are handled in this game…
There is nothing unique about them or separates them from each other.
Except for their character models and cosmetics.
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### Author:  [@Rebel](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Rebel)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2020, 9:54am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960/67 "2020-11-04T09:54:47Z")
> [@SirKruber](#):
>
> Now: EVERY career has a THP, stagger, and ultimate talent row
How is the ultimate talent row in any way generic? Every single ultimate row is completely different from career to career. Seems really weird to put it in the same league as tHP and stagger talents which are actually shared.
> [@SirKruber](#):
>
> There is nothing unique about them or separates them from each other.
>
> But compared to how the careers are handled in this game…
>
> Except for their character models and cosmetics.
I don’t even know what to say to this, this is just extremely hyperbolic.
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### Author:  [@SirKruber](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/SirKruber)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2020, 10:34am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960/68 "2020-11-04T10:34:57Z")
> [@Rebel](#):
>
> > [@SirKruber](#):
> >
> > There is nothing unique about them or separates them from each other.
> >
> > > But compared to how the careers are handled in this game…
> > >
> > > Except for their character models and cosmetics.
>
> I don’t even know what to say to this, this is just extremely hyperbolic.
Let’s take Sienna as an example then.
All Sienna careers rely on having Overcharge.
-Battle Wizard: OC increases spell charge
-Pyromancer: OC increases critical strike chance
-UnChained: OC increases melee dmg
Attack Speed options:
-BW: Immersive Immolation (hitting 4 or more enemies increases atk speed 15%)
-Pyro: Martial Study + One with the Flame (together can give 15% atk speed)
-UC: Frenzied Flame (15% atk speed on high OC)
Increased range options:
-BW:
Pyromantic Surge (10% increased range dmg)
Volcanic Force (fully charging a spell increases it’s power by 50%)
-Pyro:
Searing Focus (10% increased range dmg)
Ride the Fire Wind (range power can stack up to 20%)
On the Precipice (increases range power on high OC)
-UC: No range only power talents but does have 2 talents that increases all power. Enhanced Power and Fuel to the Fire
Both Pyro and UC have the ability of no slow down during overcharge.
UC has automatic passive.
Pyro has The Volans Doctrine talent
**You can literally build every Sienna career to be almost identical to each other.**
> [@Rebel](#):
>
> How is the ultimate talent row in any way generic? Every single ultimate row is completely different from career to career.
The majority of the choices are ultimate cooldown, damage reduction or stealth option, increase power, increase critical strike chance, and attack speed.
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### Author:  [@James](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/James)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2020, 10:43am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960/69 "2020-11-04T10:43:30Z")
In a game where majority of content is slapping rats, some careers are bound to feel similar.
There’s only so much to work with, usually a careers passive defines their game-play loop.
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### Author:  [@Rebel](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Rebel)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2020, 10:43am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960/70 "2020-11-04T10:43:58Z")
> [@SirKruber](#):
>
> All Sienna careers rely on having Overcharge.
> -Battle Wizard: OC increases spell charge
> -Pyromancer: OC increases critical strike chance
> -UnChained: OC increases melee dmg
Yeah, cause she’s a wizard. And that’s like 3 different things.
> [@SirKruber](#):
>
> Attack Speed options:
> -BW: Immersive Immolation (hitting 4 or more enemies increases atk speed 15%)
> -Pyro: Martial Study + One with the Flame (together can give 15% atk speed)
> -UC: Frenzied Flame (15% atk speed on high OC)
Yeah, but no one takes Immersive Immolation, Martial Study + One with the Flame is 2 talents for only 15% attack speed, while Frenzied Flame is a talent that sees regular use and solidifies Unchained as a melee career.
> [@SirKruber](#):
>
> Increased range options:
> -BW:
> Pyromantic Surge (10% increased range dmg)
> Volcanic Force (fully charging a spell increases it’s power by 50%)
>
> -Pyro:
> Searing Focus (10% increased range dmg)
> Ride the Fire Wind (range power can stack up to 20%)
> On the Precipice (increases range power on high OC)
>
> -UC: No range only power talents but does have 2 talents that increases all power. Enhanced Power and Fuel to the Fire
>
> Both Pyro and UC have the ability of no slow down during overcharge.
> UC has automatic passive.
> Pyro has The Volans Doctrine talent
Cool, 2 of the ranged focused careers have talents that affect ranged power but in different ways, while the melee focused career has a few specialized talents to help with ranged and bring a more hybrid playstyle.
> [@SirKruber](#):
>
> The majority of the choices are ultimate cooldown, damage reduction or stealth option, increase power, increase critical strike chance, and attack speed.
Ah, so the majority of ultimate talent choices are like 10 different things? Still doesn’t change the fact that the ults themselves are different, and attack speed for one ult can affect it differently than another.
> [@SirKruber](#):
>
> You can literally build every Sienna career to be almost identical to each other.
**No you literally can’t.** I’m not seeing it, chief. I’m not going to be Unchained as Pyromancer, or BW as Unchained. When I play different careers, I feel it.
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### Author:  [@SirKruber](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/SirKruber)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2020, 11:14am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960/71 "2020-11-04T11:14:22Z")
> [@Rebel](#):
>
> **No you literally can’t.**
Yes, you can.
The possibility is there to do it. Why even bother having 3 separate careers if you can just build all of them in a similar way?
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### Author:  [@SlashKex](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/SlashKex)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2020, 12:34pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960/72 "2020-11-04T12:34:12Z")
Build in a similar way? Yes. Build them to be almost identical to each other? Kind of yes. You would struggle to build BW in a way that allows you to output as much sustained(I mean 20-30 seconds of just fireballing a boss to cinders) ranged dps as you can do with UC without ventilating yourself into the afterlife. On the other hand, no matter what you do, Pyro and UC are unable to match, or be almost identical, to BW’s burst damage. So, will you have almost identical performance? Haha! Lol, nope. You won’t. Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should nor does it mean that it is viable. The choice is there, which I like.
Also, I have a feeling that you never took Sienna into modded difficulty. Because I can understand where you are coming from if we are simply looking at what the base game has to offer in terms of difficulty. Enemies don’t have a lot of hp(even on cata 1) so they just die pretty quickly hence, seeing the difference between 3 careers, which are all about lobbing fire at the ratties, isn’t self-explanatory. If you want further proof I suggest jumping into the VT Modded Community discord where players far more experienced than I will tell you the same thing and would, probably, be willing to demonstrate differences in a few runs.
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### Author:  [@anon75893681](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/anon75893681)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2020, 1:08pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960/73 "2020-11-04T13:08:10Z")
> [@SirKruber](#):
>
> There is nothing unique about them or separates them from each other.
>
> Except for their character models and cosmetics.
This is very extreme and not true at all.
I understand what you are saying. Yes, there are copy pasted passives/talents, the example of bw/pyro’s 10% ranged passive, that one is literally a copy.
I fail to see though, how every career is similar and a copy. The reward might be the same, but the way you reach that reward is unique. Immersive immolation is unique compared to frenzied flame, it’s not 100% unique but thats literally impossible to do in a game with so many careers. It would take so much time thinking about 100% unique ideas and in the end there would still be talents with similarities.
You are also looking at talents or passives individually. You have to keep the synergies and combinations in mind aswell.
Which result in the career being unique in their own way.
Also what james said is true
> [@James](#):
>
> usually a careers passive defines their game-play loop.
A passive or an ultimate is a very big thing that makes a career unique in their own way.
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### Author:  [@Raichu](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Raichu)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2020, 1:32pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960/74 "2020-11-04T13:32:38Z")
> Attack Speed options:
> -BW: Immersive Immolation (hitting 4 or more enemies increases atk speed 15%)
> -Pyro: Martial Study + One with the Flame (together can give 15% atk speed)
> -UC: Frenzied Flame (15% atk speed on high OC)
Missing a talent there for Pyro to get 15% attackspeed would also suffer the overcharge slow down without Volanis Doctorine…so you need 3 talents to be on par
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### Author:  [@SirKruber](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/SirKruber)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2020, 3:15pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960/75 "2020-11-04T15:15:17Z")
> [@anon75893681](#):
>
> thats literally impossible to do in a game with so many careers.
Say that to Zenimax where there are 10 races and 6 different class choices in ESO you can mix and match.
None of them are identical or similar.
I love Vermintide 2 but there are a lot of disappointing careers in this game. They are way too similar to each other with very few builds. With 3 talent choices per row and 6 talent rows overall, there should be multiple viable builds but there isn’t.
Imho, the talent system in this game is pretty drab compared to A LOT of different games with various class choices.
If you guys don’t see that there is no uniqueness between the careers then this conversation is already over. You’re either blinded to the point you can’t see it or you choose not to see it due to lack of experience in other games with various class choices.
Either way, without drastic changes, this game won’t survive for the next 5-8 years.
Which makes me incredibly sad as I’ve given up all games for this one as no other game comes close to the V2 melee combat system.
I just wish there were better choices and endless builds. Without variety, there’s nothing.
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### Author:  [@Rebel](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Rebel)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2020, 3:40pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960/76 "2020-11-04T15:40:28Z")
> [@SirKruber](#):
>
> Say that to Zenimax where there are 10 races and 6 different class choices in ESO you can mix and match.
>
> None of them are identical or similar.
Mind expanding on that? Cause I severely doubt MMORPG’s have “completely unique classes”. There’s also the point that all careers in V2 have to inherently be damage dealers to some degree, while in MMORPG’s you have pure support careers with buffs and NPC pets, Necromancers with NPC summons, pure healers which wouldn’t work in V2 either, or something like pure tanks as well (like say WoW).
> [@SirKruber](#):
>
> I love Vermintide 2 but there are a lot of disappointing careers in this game.
A lot of disappointing careers? Like which ones specifically? Most of them?
> [@SirKruber](#):
>
> If you guys don’t see that there is no uniqueness between the careers then this conversation is already over.
I dunno, I think RV is pretty far from being close to Slayer, or that Mercenary is in any way close to Shade and vice versa.
> [@SirKruber](#):
>
> Either way, without drastic changes, this game won’t survive for the next 5-8 years.
Most games don’t ‘survive’ for a couple years, let alone nearly a decade more. Oh no, the game will only maybe survive for another full decade, how horrible! I’m also not sure where this conclusion of yours is coming from.
> [@SirKruber](#):
>
> I just wish there were better choices and endless builds. Without variety, there’s nothing.
I have 6 builds on WHC, several on Mercenary, 4 on Shade, at least 3 on WS, 4 on RV, 4 on BW and so on. Is that uhhh, not good enough? There’s only so many weapons, talents and modifiers that you can work with, and there’s only so many builds a player can play with or see in the game. I don’t think having an endless amount of builds is as exciting as you think it is.
> [@SirKruber](#):
>
> You’re either blinded to the point you can’t see it or you choose not to see it due to lack of experience in other games with various class choices.
ok buddy, sure
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### Author:  [@anon75893681](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/anon75893681)
#### Post date: [November 4, 2020, 7:07pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960/77 "2020-11-04T19:07:58Z")
> [@SirKruber](#):
>
> Say that to Zenimax where there are 10 races and 6 different class choices in ESO you can mix and match.
>
> None of them are identical or similar.
Glad you mentioned Elder scrolls online.
They did put out a dev blog talking about class identity in 2019. You can read it here: [https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/57025](https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/57025)
If you don’t want to read it, basically it tells their playerbase how they define a class identity.
i’ll quote them below.
> **Power fantasy** refers to the fictional justification of your character’s power and how it’s expressed through the look and feel of abilities. Necromancers draw their strength from death magic as they manipulate souls, flesh, and bone. Templars call upon the power of light and the burning sun. Every class should have a clearly defined source of power, and class abilities should reinforce that fantasy through their descriptions, animations, visual effects, and audio. When you see a player using class abilities, you should have little doubt which class they are playing, and it should look awesome!
The second one:
> The second component of class identity focuses on **play patterns** , which are the specific mechanics and behaviors you have to learn, engage with, and master to achieve objectives in battle. While all healers might have an objective of “prevent ally health from reaching zero,” you can achieve this through several effect behaviors: direct heals, heal over time, damage shields, and damage reduction, to name a few. Each of these effect behaviors exhibit benefits and limitations that, when combined with a triggering method, make them more or less effective in various contexts. Direct heals, for example, can quickly replenish an ally who is low on health, but you have to wait until the ally has taken damage to use it and risk a loss of cost efficiency if you overheal. You can apply this same model of thought to damage and tanking abilities.
In short:
> Hopefully we’ve shed light on how we use the term “class identity” internally. In summary, we define success as delivering class kits that combine cohesive, satisfying power fantasies with unique and effective play patterns. The end result should be the ability to fill any role with any class while retaining the look and feel of that class.
This is ofcourse how the Devs of ESO view class identity, but i assume fatsharks view of this isn’t far off. (but i’m not sure)
If you google a bit and see if they achieved the above, i found some forum posts from this year saying its still bland and not unique because in ESO you **literally** can do, and be everything you want. But it should retain the class identity and it seems its still not that way. (i’m not sure, as i don’t play ESO).
* * *
Vermintide 2’s identity system is not perfect. Ofcourse not. But its not bad either, or all copied or the same.
Can vermintide 2’s identity and uniqueness improve? 100 times yes, but its not all copied and bland, and ESO is certainly not doing better in this regard, because finding and making a class feel unique is not an easy thing to do.
The issue v2 has in my opinion is **Play patterns** to a certain degree and on some careers. Some talents could be made more unique.
I do feel like **Power fantasy** is pretty well defined already. If we take a careers passive as a power fantasy or the lore behind them.
So in short: Every career is pretty wel defined and unique if you look at their passives, the thing that could improve would be the unique talents which reinforce that. basically **play patterns**.
> The end result should be the ability to fill any role with any class while retaining the look and feel of that class.
If we take sienna as an example. Yes, you can build a melee pyro and be very effective in melee, but you still feel like a pyro and not an unchained.
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### Author:  [@SirKruber](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/SirKruber)
#### Post date: [November 5, 2020, 7:07pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960/78 "2020-11-05T19:07:03Z")
> [@Rebel](#):
>
> Cause I severely doubt MMORPG’s have “completely unique classes”.
Played ESO for 5 years and, yes, their classes are all unique. I’ve played every combination you can think of and each one was uniquely different. Minus the necromancer because I actually quit the game prior to it’s release.
> [@Rebel](#):
>
> pure healers which wouldn’t work in V2 eithe
I never said V2 should have healer roles. ESO was just an example on how to make each class (or career in this case) unique to each other.
> [@Rebel](#):
>
> A lot of disappointing careers? Like which ones specifically? Most of them?
Merc/WHC - both shouts that can knock back enemies
all Sienna careers - outlined above how each one can have same build
RV/Huntsman - stealth range careers
Shade/GK - boss/elite deleters
They are far too similar for me to enjoy.
> [@Rebel](#):
>
> I’m also not sure where this conclusion of yours is coming from.
Fatshark said in 2018 that they wish to continue support for this game for the next 5-10 years.
> [@Rebel](#):
>
> I have 6 builds on WHC, several on Mercenary, 4 on Shade, at least 3 on WS, 4 on RV, 4 on BW and so on.
Not sure what you mean here. If by separate builds you mean only changing 1 or 2 talent rows to fit different weapons and/or using different weapons with the same properties/traits. That does not constitute different or unique builds. For example, it’s not a different build by switching from Rapier to A&F if you use the same properties or traits on both.
> [@anon75893681](#):
>
> This is ofcourse how the Devs of ESO view class identity
The developers of ESO are super into making their game. Zenimax has only ever made single player games and ESO is their first and only MMO game. Their vision is pure and they all play their game. I’ve played ESO for 5 years and never had any of the different race/class combinations felt similar to each other. A magicka sorcerer plays way differently than a stamina sorcerer.
> [@anon75893681](#):
>
> If you google a bit and see if they achieved the above, i found some forum posts from this year saying its still bland and not unique because in ESO you **literally** can do, and be everything you want.
Don’t put much stock in the ESO forums. The vast majority of players who claim it’s boring with bland classes are the ones who spend their first 200 hours dolmen grinding to max level then jumping into high end veteran hardmode raids not understanding enemy mechanics and dying.
> [@anon75893681](#):
>
> ESO is certainly not doing better in this regard, because finding and making a class feel unique is not an easy thing to do.
It is easy though. As long as you understand game mechanics, champion point boosts and allocation, gear boosts/bonuses, ability and gear synergy, then you can literally make any build viable enough to run high end raids or compete against the top players in PvP Cyrodiil. I used to have a HUGE thread in the ESO forums highlighting my non-meta builds. Unfortunately, it got archived after a year (due to inactivity).
> [@anon75893681](#):
>
> So in short: Every career is pretty well defined and unique if you look at their passives, the thing that could improve would be the unique talents which reinforce that. basically **play patterns**.
Honestly, most of the passives/talents/ultimates are too similar. Very few unique careers in the game. Considering the lack of choices we have for properties and traits doesn’t help either. Does anyone even use Resourceful Combatant anymore?
Here is a list of some of the non-meta characters I made which outperformed some of the top ESO players’ meta builds:
Magicka Warden Bosmer - double bow
Magicka Sorcerer Orc - dual axes/frost staff
Magicka DragonKnight Vampire Dunmer - full fire build, dual swords, fire staff
Stamina Templar Altmer - dual daggers / sword & board (PvP)
Stamina Nightblade Breton - 2h hammer / restoration staff (PvP)
Stamina Sorcerer Argonian - sword & board / frost staff
The vast majority of ESO players do not understand
-their class
-their weapons
-their abilities
-their ultimates
-their gear sets
-their champion point allocation
-the various traits to use
OR
-how to synergize their gear choices with their traits
**This is why the “meta” builds do not work for most ESO players. If you don’t understand what it does then you won’t understand how to use it.**
I absolutely demolished people with my non-meta builds in PvP and ranked high scores in veteran hardmode raids. It did take me years to understand everything in the game. Meta builds might be more efficient to use (if you understand how it works) but if you have ever seen the meta builds, then you will understand why most people claim ESO is boring.
Be your own person, think outside the box, and don’t use cookie cutter builds you don’t understand.
Fyi, none of my non-meta builds felt the same. I literally taught myself how every item in the game worked and how to combine them effectively.
I guess in a way, ESO ruined me for other games as it makes me see the mistakes in class building in other games. If there are even the slightest of similarities, it turns me off. I still thoroughly enjoy V2, I just wish there was more to offer in terms of completely independent careers with no rehashing or reusing abilities, talents, passives.
I’m more critical of the Sienna careers because I was a HUGE V1 Sienna main. I’ve been disappointed in her career choices since launch. When I noticed that you could literally take one specific build and share it across all of her careers, it really made me upset. I always thought she had the most potential.
If it wasn’t for the saving grace of Krubz, I probably would have dropped V2 in 2018 despite playing V1 since 2016.
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### Author:  [@semn007](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/semn007)
#### Post date: [November 6, 2020, 7:25am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960/79 "2020-11-06T07:25:12Z")
One thing I definitely disagree with most of peeps in this thread is Smiter. I have no idea why would anyone choos it… I mean it is better than Bullwark, but it’s definitely worse than any other option (except maaaybe AP talent) in my opinion.
I definitely disagree that there’s much need to do anything with Pyro. She has mad crit chance, OP ult multicast and very high single target damage. Use staff if you want to improve your AOE.
My main problem with her is that switching weapons quite often does not register. I run at 99-100% overcharge and usually have really idiotic deaths when instead of switching to melee and handing ass to the Pactsworn with mad crits I go into overcharge because weapon switching has not been registered for some reason and go down like a moron…
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### Author:  [@Velsix](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Velsix)
#### Post date: [November 6, 2020, 9:01am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960/80 "2020-11-06T09:01:26Z")
> [@SirKruber](#):
>
> Not sure what you mean here. If by separate builds you mean only changing 1 or 2 talent rows to fit different weapons and/or using different weapons with the same properties/traits. That does not constitute different or unique builds. For example, it’s not a different build by switching from Rapier to A&F if you use the same properties or traits on both.
Breakpoints below are all headshot breakpoints unless otherwise mentioned.
Rapier Play like it’s pre-WoM build:
[https://www.ranaldsgift.com/10/233213/32,1,4,6/19,3,5,7/3,4,5/1,4,2/7,4,1](https://www.ranaldsgift.com/10/233213/32,1,4,6/19,3,5,7/3,4,5/1,4,2/7,4,1)
Lets Rapier cleave un-staggered Marauders for safety and Flense damage due to Enhanced Power. Overall theme is max mobility and freedom of movement through stagger, like a slippery WHC. Raw movement and speed. Push/block angle to help with skirting around hordes and escaping if need be.
Rapier 1 shot build:
[https://www.ranaldsgift.com/10/122111/32,8,4,6/19,3,1,7/3,2,1/6,4,4/7,2,1](https://www.ranaldsgift.com/10/122111/32,8,4,6/19,3,1,7/3,2,1/6,4,4/7,2,1)
Lets Rapier full charge 1 shot tagged Bestigors and SV, BoP has normal breakpoints but with good ammo sustain. Decent vs tagged CWs due to only requiring 2 full charges + 1 partial, partial 1 shots tagged Savages which the Rapier has more trouble with than Plague Monks due to Savage attack pattern/higher mass of nearby Marauders. Explosive Ordinance due to not really needing Shrapnel when you have I Shall Judge You All (you can still use Shrapnel it just tends to be overkill).
Switching power vs Armor to Infantry and to Mainstay lets the Rapier lights 1 shot Maraurders after using I Shall Judge You All ult.
Rapier Riposte 1 shot build:
[https://www.ranaldsgift.com/10/112212/32,8,5,6/19,3,5,7/3,2,1/6,4,1/7,2,3](https://www.ranaldsgift.com/10/112212/32,8,5,6/19,3,5,7/3,2,1/6,4,1/7,2,3)
Cata FoW certified. 1 shot full charge crit on tagged CWs. Partial 1 shot Marauders. Can block 1 CW overhead from the front. Heretic Sighted to make landing Ripostes easier. Charmed Life since you have to avoid anymore attacks after blocking 1 overhead. Can be switched to Cast Away if using BCR and Stamina on Necklace.
Billhook Infantry 1 shot:
[https://www.ranaldsgift.com/10/222323/40,8,2,6/20,3,5,2/3,2,1/4,5,4/7,2,3](https://www.ranaldsgift.com/10/222323/40,8,2,6/20,3,5,2/3,2,1/4,5,4/7,2,3)
Both Billhook lights 1 shot all horde infantry including Marauders. Mixed support and horde focus. Wild Fervour for Swift Slaying up time. Crossbow pairs well with Billhook due to Billhook having good cleave and decent push stagger strength for making space to take shots (Rapier makes less space).
Greatsword Riposte build:
[https://www.ranaldsgift.com/10/211223/31,3,2,6/20,3,5,2/3,2,1/4,1,2/7,2,3](https://www.ranaldsgift.com/10/211223/31,3,2,6/20,3,5,2/3,2,1/4,1,2/7,2,3)
Greatsword has good stagger strength on push, making weaving in Riposte push attacks on elite heads safe even mid horde. Mainstay is for horde breakpoints. Struggles with CWs. Crossbow again because Greatsword is decent at making space. Decanter for Str pot duration against CW patrol (Greatsword has very high damage against CWs with Str pot).
Range BoP Riposte build:
[https://www.ranaldsgift.com/10/113333/32,3,1,6/19,3,1,7/3,2,1/5,4,1/1,2,2](https://www.ranaldsgift.com/10/113333/32,3,1,6/19,3,1,7/3,2,1/5,4,1/1,2,2)
Crit fishing build. Concotion to ensure ult spam and due to reload taking too long for Decanter to be effective at this purpose. Max crit chance. Crits got from Riposte aren’t actually limited to melee like the prompt says and can be used with your ranged weapon and the Rapier’s pistol special attack. On tagged Berserker enemies 1 partial charge headshot + 1 crit pistol special bodyshot will kill. Grenadier instead of Shrapnel to match the build’s theme of chance. Volley can used on this build as well. Charmed Life can be used instead for making switching to range safer if you feel confident enough with your ammo sustain.
CW Crossbow 1 Shot Crit
[https://www.ranaldsgift.com/10/223333/30,8,1,4/20,4,2,7/3,2,1/2,4,1/1,2,3](https://www.ranaldsgift.com/10/223333/30,8,1,4/20,4,2,7/3,2,1/2,4,1/1,2,3)
Crossbow 1 shot crit headshot tagged CW (crit fishing). I used to use Parry on Falchion until (imo) illogical stamina buff to offset low stamina. Crossbow on this build deals with elites very well at range, use Falchion for hordes. Good support potential so it still plays differently from BH.
Not meta builds but all of them are not only viable but good at what they do. This doesn’t account for players who are better at getting hit less than me and use stamina instead of health and other small differences. I haven’t included the meta builds here which would raise the number of builds.
Swift Slaying is used on all of them but that’s simply because Swift Slaying is optimal/overpowered. Parry works very well on the Riposte builds, and Oppourtunist works very well on the non-Rapier Riposte builds. Resourceful Combatant is good enough at what it does, it just suffers from Swift Slaying being better at it in an imabalanced way.
I have more builds on Zealot/BH/Merc/Huntsmen/FK/Handmaiden/Slayer if anyone would like me to provide more.
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### Author:  [@OenKrad](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/OenKrad)
#### Post date: [November 6, 2020, 5:05pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960/81 "2020-11-06T17:05:20Z")
I do get where SirKruber is coming from. Before the latest BBB that helped rework some careers, the situation of careers having copied talents, broken talents, or just bland talents was worse.
I have never, ever liked Pyromancer. I’ve seen people play her and do well. I see the damage. But I always found her half-baked. Ironic considering she’s a fire wizard. The BBB did move a number of things towards more play-style changing designs, but there are still a lot of bland talents/passives in the game. When Handmaiden was reworked, she got that really neat revive talent for her dash but they ultimately (ba dum tss) reduced its strength and put it as a replacement for Ariel’s Benison.
My problem with this is that two of the talents on that row are still bland and don’t make much sense. The invisibility has always had obvious value. The crit chance was a head scratcher because her design never called for a bunch of crit synergy. The bleed only affects unarmored and is debatably not very good.
All of them require you to move away from a team mate to get value, with the exception of the invisibility because you can cancel the dash and still be invisible. And if you’re not by your team so that you need to dash to them, it means you have to constantly position in weird or poor ways to get value and yet still try to be by allies. And yes, I know people can get split by bosses and such.
* * *
But to Pyromancer. Her only perk is +10% ranged damage, which Battle Wizard also has and one more. Most of her stuff is just stat boosting, with no real play-style change. There is also a lot of obnoxious RNG and tediousness built into her design.
**Talents:**
_Tier 5:_
Generic THP talents for everyone.
_Tier 10:_
- Ride the Fire Wind is great at higher power, but you need to check on it frequently to see where you’re going to be at. Having it fluctuate is an annoying “feature” you have no control over and demands you avert your eyes to check a buff often. Using a mod to shove icons in the middle of my screen and pretend this is an MMORPG is not a reasonable excuse to keep this.
- Martial Study is just 5% attack speed. This couldn’t be more bland.
- Spirit-Casting is more crit chance.
_Tier 15:_
Generic stagger talents for everyone.
_Tier 20:_
- Deathly Dissipation is one of the only play-style changing talents she has. The Volans Doctrine being the other.
- On the Precipice is just bonus range power.
- One with the Flame is just attack speed.
_Tier 25:_
- Soul Siphon is just demand reduction.
- The Volans Doctrine actually alters play-style a bit by allowing normal movement while being overcharged.
- Fleetflame increases movement speed, but in a tedious way.
_Tier 30:_
- Blazing Echo is my only real complaint. The reason being is because it further exacerbates the issue that she’s so heavily based on RNG. It could be amazing or it could be bad.
Her ability is a slower, clunkier feeling version of Waystalker’s but with stagger.
So ultimately nothing is really unique about her in terms of how she plays. She just stacks stats, geared heavily towards crit chance. So you have that RNG on top of more RNG and it just makes for a bad design.
The skill and control should more often than not be in a player’s hands. When you make a part of design so heavily based on dice rolling, it takes away certainty and the player’s ability to consistently perform.
* * *
Does every talent need to be a play-style changer like Deathly Dissipation/Blood Shot/Serrated Shots? I don’t think so. It sure does feel better though when you have at least several in the mix to really change things up.
TL;DR I don’t think Pyromancer needs buffs per se, but I do think she should be reworked to essentially add a lot more flavor and quality of life to an otherwise dull career. Raising the standard and revamping outdated/poor areas of design should be an important part of any game’s present and future.
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