# Buffing pyromancer
**URL:** https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960
**Category:** Gameplay Feedback
**Created:** [November 2, 2020, 6:27am UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960 "2020-11-02T06:27:32Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@anon75893681](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/anon75893681)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2020, 2:14pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960/42 "2020-11-03T14:14:02Z")
> [@RandomLurker](#):
>
> I’m serious about how deadly melee crit pyro is though.
I know you are. i’m not saying melee pyro is a bad build. Just that it’s not her only talent build thats effective.
> [@RandomLurker](#):
>
> Regarding staves, to benefit from the career passives, you have to use them at high heat. That means you have to Charge\>Fire\>Vent\>Repeat.
If you don’t use heatsink, sure. you have to vent once\> cast spell\>vent again, or let it manually decay. Not every ranged pyro is only effective at high heat though.
> [@RandomLurker](#):
>
> You can’t spam into a crowd- if you are at low enough heat to do that, you are just a weak BW.
This is a video of me, in the keep, using heatsink and spamming at high heat, basically upkeeping the “on the precipice” talent. Ofcourse in a game you are limited by health, but you can still range pretty much 24/7 and upkeep your hp with using bonded flame purely for that purpose (if you don’t get hit alot, otherwise melee aswell). Yes this is alot of effort and risk but it was mostly to show that you can spam at high overcharge and make use of pyro’s passive.
[ ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrkhkMYzEWk)
> [@RandomLurker](#):
>
> Except for Bolt and Fireball, crits are really weak on the other staves as well, which is very limiting.
If you look at crits from a dmg perspective. If you look at it as “heatsink” or “hunter” procs, its pretty good to have high crit chance in general.
> [@RandomLurker](#):
>
> They step on each others toes a lot, melee pyro totally out classes UC and BW totally outclasses ranged pyro
Melee pyro doesn’t outclass unchained’s melee. Melee pyro outclasses unchaineds melee on single target maybe, but unchained has power increase, which affects way more then damage. Also unchained doesn’t have smiter, i would consider that an oversight on a melee focussed career honestly.
> [@RandomLurker](#):
>
> BW is the nuker, Pyro is the melee build, and UC is a support build
I would say Bw is focussed on spells (volcanic, famished), lacks in melee but is insanely strong in ranged combat, with either high hitting single spells, or stacking dots or using dots to do dmg.
Pyro is also more ranged focussed but has the option to go into melee and is more the hybrid of the sienna in my opinion.
Unchained is melee focused mostly.
> [@Velsix](#):
>
> Killing an elite or special stops your spells from generating overcharge for 5 seconds.
> Simple, but could be too much focus on chain killing due to 5s timer.
This would be pretty strong, exactly for the reasons you mentioned
> [@Velsix](#):
>
> Killing an elite or special removes a fixed amount of overcharge.
> Could be annoying since it would lower your crit chance.
This depends on how its balanced, could also be too strong and basically be the same as the first idea depending on how its balanced.
> [@Velsix](#):
>
> Scoring 2 elite kills in 5 seconds or 1 special kill stops your spells from generating overcharge for 10 seconds.
> Might be okay, but again there’s an emphasis on chain killing. Too strong vs patrols probably.
Same issue, like you said.
> [@Velsix](#):
>
> Martial Study:
> Live talent is a leftover from pre-WoM. Venting increases attack speed by 5%. Stacks 2 times.
Would this really be used though? its a 5% attack speed increase but locked behind venting. like would people use this over the other 2?
> [@Velsix](#):
>
> Soul Siphon:
> 10% dmg reduct at max isn’t enough. Make it stack 2 or 3 times.
Yea stacking dmg red is not a bad idea.
The players that would choose soul siphon, they would lose out on high heat kiting and movement, lose out on the melee side aswell. So a safe assumption could be that soul siphon could be made some kind of venting damage reduction talent (yes i know it works on venting) or atleast more focussed on that. That way the players could give up high crit melee + the movement on high heat but be very strong in the ranged only category. But idk, Would players give up the no slow for 30% constant dmg reduction?
> [@Velsix](#):
>
> Fleetflame:
> Critical hits increase movement speed and dodge range by 5% for 10 seconds. Stacks up to 3 times.
> 15% movement speed and 15% dodge range in total. 15% dodge range might be too much.
This could be a good talent for melee focussed builds. one downside is that you lose ‘no slow’ which is basically a must have in that build especially. Maybe could be used on range heavy pyro’s with heatsink or something. Would dodge range negate some of the slow effectss on red overcharge? not sure how it works.
> [@Velsix](#):
>
> I love it but it’s a meme. Too strong on multi-proc, too weak when it doesn’t proc.
With pyro alone and spirit casting active and max heat stacks, this is a guaranteed refund every 4th ult, so. with a 90% chance at the 3rd ult to refund.
1 ult =\> no crit
2nd ult =\> no crit
3rd ult =\> no crit
4th ult =\> guaranteed crit, if you didn’t get a crit on the 3 ults before.
With a whc this changes. With a whc you have refund your ult every second ultimate.
So like this:
1st ult =\> no crit
Whc ults
2nd ult =\> guaranteed crit.
So you are less likely to refund alot one after another, but its more consistent.
---
### Author:  [@James](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/James)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2020, 2:58pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960/43 "2020-11-03T14:58:33Z")
Soul Siphon already stacks up to 3 times, it’s just not mentioned on the talent.
It’s still poor in comparison to The Volans Doctrine, no slowdown is useful both melee and ranged.
10 second duration is also rather poor for a damage reduction talent that relies on elites/specials.
---
### Author:  [@SirKruber](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/SirKruber)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2020, 2:59pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960/44 "2020-11-03T14:59:23Z")
> [@alsozara](#):
>
> The way I see it BW is more the cast specialist, UC is the melee specialist, and Pyro is in between.
Not on launch.
Unchained was advertised as being a melee career.
Pyromancer was advertised as being the range career.
Battle Wizard was the “jack of all trades” career.
But now it’s all backwards…
If you look at Warhammer lore, Battle Wizards are supposed to be sufficient in both melee and ranged combat. I don’t remember when it was changed but these careers don’t make sense to me anymore. Especially considering the name Pyromancer suggests being a ranged specialist.
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### Author:  [@Adelion](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Adelion)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2020, 3:31pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960/45 "2020-11-03T15:31:40Z")
> [@SirKruber](#):
>
> Unchained was advertised as being a melee career.
> Pyromancer was advertised as being the range career.
> Battle Wizard was the “jack of all trades” career.
>
> But now it’s all backwards…
We just have to cripple Pyromancer’s melee play give her better or more varied ranged options and it will fit again ^^: Unchained is melee, Pyromancer is ranged and Battle Wizard is the can-do-all (although in need of a nerf).
I doubt I will get this through the community though.
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### Author:  [@Velsix](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Velsix)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2020, 3:34pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960/46 "2020-11-03T15:34:01Z")
> [@anon75893681](#):
>
> With pyro alone and spirit casting active and max heat stacks, this is a guaranteed refund every 4th ult, so. with a 90% chance at the 3rd ult to refund.
Does Blazing Echo net higher dps than being able to cast more ranged spells with Exhaust or with venting with thp from Bonded Flame?
I only ask because I pretty much only use Blazing Echo on Pyro. Always felt better, but every other Pyro I’ve seen uses Exhaust or Bonded Flame so I assumed it was because Echo was bad. Completely open to being both wrong (about Echo being bad) and right (for using Echo).
> [@anon75893681](#):
>
> Would this really be used though? its a 5% attack speed increase but locked behind venting. like would people use this over the other 2?
No, probably not. How about: Increases attack speed by 5%. Venting increases attack speed by an additional 7.5% for 10 seconds. Same passive boost with a larger active boost.
> [@James](#):
>
> Soul Siphon already stacks up to 3 times, it’s just not mentioned on the talent.
Thank you for the info.
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### Author:  [@Raichu](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Raichu)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2020, 3:43pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960/47 "2020-11-03T15:43:43Z")
Shouldn’t get hung up on roles, not really any layouts just similarities
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### Author:  [@anon75893681](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/anon75893681)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2020, 3:56pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960/48 "2020-11-03T15:56:36Z")
> [@Velsix](#):
>
> Does Blazing Echo net higher dps than being able to cast more ranged spells with Exhaust or with venting with thp from Bonded Flame?
I don’t know. Would be easy to test it tough.
I would assume its not, but thats just an assumption. Also there are alot of variable that come into play in a real game aswell.
Exhaust is nice if you don’t want to vent manually or have a certain playstyle. It’s also great to do alot of damage in a short amount of time in ranged if the situation suddenly comes up.
Bonded flame is more survivability, while also giving indirect ammo sustain, temp hp allows you to vent more. I would say this is the better talent in general, but exhaust can be used on certain builds and playstyles aswell.
Blazing echo is just if don’t really need alot of survivability or don’t have a need to vent your heat bar. This is why its mostly used on melee pyro builds, they can get temp hp in melee very easily and exhaust gimps your melee only build, so blazing echo is a pretty nice ult talent to use here. it also allows for some extra ranged dps and its pretty satisfying to refund an ultimate if we are honest :).
(this doesnt mean you cannot use bonded flame on melee pyro, if you need survivability, by all means, go bonded flame).
The change to a pseudo crit system made blazing echo more reliable but also nerfed it a bit. Before with like 85% crit chance you could literally get lucky 4 times in a row, but you could also get very unlucky and only refund it not alot, this made it less reliable, but arguably more fun. Currently you can predict it to a certain degree, which is showed above. You have to look at blazing echo like this: I will get a guaranteed crit on the 4th time i ult while having a chance to refund it sooner aswell. in reality you will crit before the 4th ult though. You are also less likely to chain crits though, which is a nerf in a way.
---
### Author:  [@SirKruber](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/SirKruber)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2020, 4:47pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960/49 "2020-11-03T16:47:51Z")
> [@Adelion](#):
>
> Unchained is melee, Pyromancer is ranged and Battle Wizard is the can-do-all (although in need of a nerf).
>
> I doubt I will get this through the community though.
Agreed.
Being a V1 Sienna main, I was horribly disappointed in Battle Wizard and Unchained on launch. Battle Wizard had no uniqueness and Unchained’s melee damage on overcharge was broken (it didn’t increase melee dmg). I did not like the Wigglemancer build either which is why I started playing Kruber.
After WoM, the meta shifted to BW which made her a better melee and ranged career than Pyro AND UC…
> [@Raichu](#):
>
> Shouldn’t get hung up on roles, not really any layouts just similarities
The one thing Fatshark promised since before the game released and last year was the fact that there would be 3 different careers per hero with 3 different roles that were UNIQUE from each other.
Now, it’s hard to tell any of the careers apart except for a few. Zealot probably has the most unique career out of all of the careers because it is the only DPS class with dash and the unwillingness to die. Shade as a boss killer is no longer unique since GK released. Pyro and UC are no longer different careers because both are melee focused now. Huntsman and RV are basically twinsies despite RV being a more support type career instead of ranged. Merc and WHC have similar ultimate abilities.
The FS stream prior to WoM claimed that each career got a rework and are more unique than they ever were EXCEPT they aren’t.
3 out of 5 talent rows are just carbon copies of each other (THP, stagger, ult rows). Besides, a lot of the career’s passive abilities are traits from the original Vermintide.
Where are the unique builds per career? I know this isn’t an MMO but we were promised unique careers.
**The more the talents change, the more they are all starting to fuse together.**
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### Author:  [@anon75893681](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/anon75893681)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2020, 5:25pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960/50 "2020-11-03T17:25:50Z")
You can always and will always be able to find similarities between careers, unless your game only has a very limited amount of classes and even in that case, you can still find similarities.
You can say every career is a copy. I can say bw’s ult is a copy of footknight’s charge, yet it’s unique. Whc and merc have similar ults, yet are unique. Rv and huntsman have similar ults, yet are unique. There is so much uniqueness in this game, but there is also similarities between careers and that’s something you can never remove. Design is always very similar, yet unique in their own way.
You can however increase the uniqueness and lessen the similarities, but i think vermintide does a pretty good job, while not perfect, a pretty good job.
> [@SirKruber](#):
>
> BW which made her a better melee and ranged career than Pyro AND UC…
I don’t agree with this. A reason why bw is currently stronger in melee is due to famished working with fire sword. Pyro and unchained are still better in melee then bw in a general sense, if you remove the one broken synergy with fire sword dots. If we compare real melee (no dots), pyro and uc are better, if we compare uc and pyro in pure melee there is still a difference between the 2 and uc is more consistent in melee in general.
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### Author:  [@James](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/James)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2020, 5:31pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960/51 "2020-11-03T17:31:51Z")
Adding Smiter to UC would immediately widen the gap and fortify UC as the melee Sienna.
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### Author:  [@Rebel](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Rebel)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2020, 5:32pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960/52 "2020-11-03T17:32:50Z")
> [@jiyakelma](#):
>
> Do you really think pyromancer has good survivablility?
Pyromancer has infinitely better survivability than BH in my opinion. Great tHP talents, good weapons to generate that tHP with, much stronger melee stats and an ult that gives huge amounts of tHP. BH can’t generate tHP at all (hyperbole of course) which is what really weakens him.
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### Author:  [@James](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/James)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2020, 5:33pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960/53 "2020-11-03T17:33:34Z")
I agree, BH has potentially the worst THP sustain in the game.
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### Author:  [@anon75893681](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/anon75893681)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2020, 5:34pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960/54 "2020-11-03T17:34:00Z")
Yes exactly. Currently pyro performs better then unchained due to having smiter (yes also crits affect it, but it’s not 100% crit chance).
Unchained does perform better however in big groups of enemies, cleave and such.
Add smiter to uc and there will be no (or less) doubt she is the melee sienna.
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### Author:  [@DVD.exe](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/DVD.exe)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2020, 6:30pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960/55 "2020-11-03T18:30:01Z")
> [@SirKruber](#):
>
> What I don’t understand is why the supposed ranged Sienna career got all of the melee talents
Because she’s not the ranged Sienna anymore. She hasn’t been since they nerfed Heat Sink.
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### Author:  [@anon75893681](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/anon75893681)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2020, 6:37pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960/56 "2020-11-03T18:37:21Z")
Not sure what people mean by this.
How is pyro not a ranged sienna?
Where are all the melee pyro talents?
Pyro is a hybrid with a bit more leaning towards ranged, and her talents + passive support that.
Lvl 10:
- Ride the fire wind: ranged talent
- Martial study: Hybrid
- Spirit casting: hybrid
Lvl 20:
- Deathly dissapation: ranged
- On the precipice: ranged
- One with the flame: hybrid
lvl 25:
- Soul siphon: hybrid
- Volans doctrine: hybrid
- Fleetflame: hybrid
lvl 30:
- Exhaust: ranged
- Bonded flame: ranged/hybrid
- Blazing echo: crit focussed (ranged).
Passives:
- Increased crit chance in melee and ranged: hybrid
- searing focus: 10% increased range/ ranged focussed.
* * *
Where are all those supposed melee talents at?
I honestly wanna know what people mean with this?
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### Author:  [@DVD.exe](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/DVD.exe)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2020, 6:45pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960/57 "2020-11-03T18:45:05Z")
The only buff I want for Pyro is for _Exhaust_, which no one ever cared about, get replaced with Burning Twins, which was a fun ult everybody liked.
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### Author:  [@DVD.exe](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/DVD.exe)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2020, 6:55pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960/58 "2020-11-03T18:55:52Z")
> [@anon75893681](#):
>
> Not sure what people mean by this.
Ok.
Can just as easily ask what people mean by “Pyro is the ranged class” too. I _assume_ what they mean is Pyro can no longer actually cast infinitely as she did in launch with the way crit and heat sink worked. She can’t do that now, and the forums moan endlessly about Pyro not being a ranged class anymore, or the classic “BW got all of the ranged talents!” that pops up every now and then.
Pyro’s different now, if she doesn’t _fit_ some narrow view of what a _ranged class_ is then dudes need to be told the obvious.
Fwiw I like current Pyro. She fits the glass cannon theme nicely and preforms well when you know what role within the group you want to fill.
---
### Author:  [@SirKruber](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/SirKruber)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2020, 9:00pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960/59 "2020-11-03T21:00:30Z")
> [@anon75893681](#):
>
> How is pyro not a ranged sienna?
> Where are all the melee pyro talents?
Pyro got all of the attack speed bonuses most people (including me) expected Unchained to get. I also don’t understand why Pyro gets bonuses on high overcharge. Her Pyro career doesn’t have an uncontrollable fire lust…
> [@DVD.exe](#):
>
> I _assume_ what they mean is Pyro can no longer actually cast infinitely as she did in launch with the way crit and heat sink worked.
Not everyone liked or played the exploitable Wigglemancer. This is why you shouldn’t assume anything.
The reason why I and some other players say she isn’t a ranged class anymore is because she’s supposed to be the ranged focus career.
Fatshark pre-launch stream had explained that each hero has 3 possible career paths they would have taken after the events of the original Vermintide.
These paths were then outlined as:
-Melee focused
-Ranged focused
-Jack of all Trades (meaning they are sufficient at both, master of none)
Only problem was the range meta on launch was WAY overtuned as devs accidentally calculated Hero Power multiplicatively instead of additive.
These were how the original careers were designed. Argue however you want but that’s how it was **supposed** to be.
Unfortunately, with all of the talent changes, nothing separates the careers anymore except for cosmetics and a few unique active abilities.
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### Author:  [@Raichu](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/Raichu)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2020, 9:21pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960/60 "2020-11-03T21:21:02Z")
Well how it was suppose to be at launch was terrible how it is now is much more balanced, unique and moving in the right direction with future careers I expect more adjustments and would expect next Sienna to be melee dps where UC is more of a melee tank frame… but who really knows!?
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### Author:  [@anon75893681](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/u/anon75893681)
#### Post date: [November 3, 2020, 9:23pm UTC](https://forums.fatsharkgames.com/t/buffing-pyromancer/41960/61 "2020-11-03T21:23:05Z")
> [@SirKruber](#):
>
> Pyro got all of the attack speed bonuses most people (including me) expected Unchained to get.
Pyro didn’t get any new attack speed talents as far as i know. Martial study and one with the flame were there before if i remember correctly. It’s also not alot, its 1 noteworthy attack speed talent.
Unless you want to give unchained that talent.
Also if pyro didn’t get bonusses on high overcharge, she would be closer to a battle wizard honestly. i think its great how they did it, every sienna career is unique.
edit: also it is currently like they said on the stream. unless they specifically said which career would fit which role. Currently its, bw: range; pyro: JoaT; UC: melee
> [@DVD.exe](#):
>
> Can just as easily ask what people mean by “Pyro is the ranged class” too.
Yes sure you can ask that. But she does have more things to indicate that she is primarly ranged, while also being strong and viable in melee due to being built around crits and having acces to the no slow as a talent, which indicates it as range or hybrid if you wanna categorise it. Categorising her as the melee sienna is just wrong in my opinion.
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