Bountyhunter 3.0

I like most of the changes to BH in the BBB. They open up new combos and a playstyle of mixed melee/ranged synergy that I would like to see further improved to differentiate him from the other ranged careers more and giving him a unique playstile.
Probably too late in the beta to change stuff anyway, but maybe as an inspiration for the next one. After brooding for over a week on this, i finally put it all together into a Post:

New Passive:

Warfunding - Elites not killed by ranged weapons refund 10% Ammo
(Ammo gain by melee, ult and Bombs)

  • Gives BH a reliable means to regain ammo besides scrounger, that has innate synergy with tithetaker which is otherwise pretty much wasted on him.

Neccesary Means - gain 2% melee power for every ammo missing from your magazine up to 15%

  • Less ammo -> stronger melee. Good synergy with weapon swap buff for strong melee when you need it.
  • Could be changed to (Magsize - current ammo in mag)*15% power to include Crossbow

Weight of Fire - gain 2% ranged Power for every ammo loaded in your gun up to 15%

  • Fully loaded guns do more damage. Also good synergy with weapon swap buff for easier breakpoints on RP/BoP
  • Could be changed to (Current ammo in mag/magsize)*15% power to include Crossbow

Melee swap Buff - increase max stacks to 10/15. and please fix that sometimes damage isnt applied, but a buff removed.
Range Buff - gained through melee hit, removed per ammo used instead of per attack hitting (RP gains 15% buff on altfire, but costs up to 8 stacks on altfire /Volley Crossbow costs 3 per volley while also only recieving 15% bonus)

melee buff - gained per ammo spent instead of per attack hitting (RP altfire generates up to 8 stacks on altfire/ Volley Crossbow generates 3 stacks per Volley)

  • weapons that use more ammo gain melee buffs quicker, but use them up quicker. Melee should be overall better with RP/Volley Crossbow this way. No negative effect on Crossbow/BoP.

Cruel Fortune - Decrease Blessed shots CD 1 sec per ammo spent

  • instead of a flat 4 second CD decrease, this benefits fast firing weapons more on Bursts. Slight nerf to usefullness on Crossbow though.
  • Meaningfull alternative to Prize Bounty on RP (practically constant critshots)

Cruel Fortune (alternative) - replace it with the old Blessed Shot reset on melee kill.

  • It‘s arguably the best choice on live right now, performing better than a flat 4s CD reduction and synergizes very well with melee/range alternation.

Hunters Persuit - Ranged critical hits grant Victor 20% increased movement speed and 10% increased dodge distance for 10 seconds.

  • a bit better than live, to make it more lucrative compared to utility/DR
  • current BBB talent feels more like a nerf of live, limiting his evade game and therefor pushing players to the other two options

Melee kill reload - reload 1 ammo per melee kill + increases Warfunding by 50%

  • Warfunding now gives 15% ammo on Elite kill. Should supplement ammo needy weapons.
  • Could be changed to reloading 20% of magazine, buffing RP/BoP to 2 ammo per kill and Volley Crossbow to 3 ammo per Kill.

Just Reward - outline random existing enemy on map (eg yellow) instead of random Buff with enemy picture.

  • giving a specific target feels more immersive and fitting for a bountyhunting skill, than just a generic enemy type.
  • Enemies that cant spawn on a map are now no longer a possible target.
  • Teammates can kill the enemy resulting in you not getting the buff. This counteracts the removal of unspawnable targets.

Doubleshotted - remove stagger from sniper bullet. Leave 40% CDR per Headshot.

  • fixes boss staggerlocking via doubleshotted. Now similar to WS Piercing Shot (doubleshotted has more dmg, but less cd reduction on headshot)

Buckshot - shield penetration, increase pellets per barrel by 50% (30 pellets overall) increase cleave by 100%, Cooldown reduction of 60-70%

  • instead of 60-70% CDR give 40% (42 seconds) and 20% Cooldown regeneration per killed enemy until the next full ult.
  • Buckshot is too lackluster in damage and cleave with too high cooldown to justify the loss of single target damage.

Last, but not least some ammo tweaks. These are purely my opinion on the matter as i think only ranged careers should have ammo sustainability:

BoP: Increase ammo to 36 base

  • BH gets 54 ammo -> 3 shots through scrounger, 5 ammo with Warfunding, 8 ammo with improved Warfunding
  • WHC with +30% gets 47 ammo -> 2 ammo through scrounger. (Even with his ult he shouldnt gain more ammo than he spends)

Volley Crossbow: Decrease ammo to 38 base

  • BH gets 57 ammo -> 3 ammo through scrounger, 6 ammo with Warfunding, 9 with improved Warfunding. (No nerf to scrounger ammo regen)
  • WHC with +30% gets 49 ammo -> 2 ammo through scrounger (instead of 3 ammo with 45 base)
  • Whc can get up to 25% crit chance.(plus additional 25% for 6 seconds with ult) giving him on average 1.5 ammo (3 during ult) per ammo spent. Right now he can virtually spam forever with crit and scrounger build.

Crossbow: no ammo change needed IMO as Scrounger doesnt overperform on WHC

  • WHC with +30% gets 26 ammo -> 1 ammo with scrounger making conservative shooter the better choice for sustain
  • BH gets 30 ammo -> 2 ammo with scrounger, 3 ammo with Warfunding, 5 with improved Warfunding.

Repeater Pistol: Needs a lot of ammo to kill with regular shots and acostly altfire that is less effective than a shotgun. Could use an ammo buff to 54 IMO.

  • BH gets 81 ammo -> 4 ammo with scrounger, 8 ammo with warfunding, 12 ammo with improved warfunding.
  • WHC with +30% gets 70 ammo -> 4 ammo with scrounger. Due to the immense ammo consumption of altfire and shots needed for regular shooting I think 4 ammo is justifiable.

Not sure about the last one. Ammo buff could be too much with the talent changes, making it too strong in certain combinations.

Eg. cruel fortune + scrounger Leading to constant crit altfire that effectively only costs 4 ammo (out of a 81 ammo pool)

Thanks for reading this monstrosity of a post.

What do you guys think? Do you like some/all suggestions? Can you think of anything gamebreaking with these changes?

Edit 28.07.: added Hunters Persuit. And suggestion of readding Blessed Shot reset on melee kill in favor of 4s CD reduction

7 Likes

Nice work, especially the ammo tweaks sound like a good idea.

If the outline was visible to all teammates, it would probably just be a matter of teamplay to not shoot the target. If the outline is only visible to the BH it might be hard to kill him first, depending on the efficency of the teammates.
Maybe if the target get’s a seperate callout option (BH tags it, it gets the same outline for the others) it could be a good mix of both. You can still lose the target if you don’t spot him fast enough, but a highly efficient teammate won’t make the perk useless just because he doesn’t know which target you need.

1 Like

I thought more on the line of everyone being able to see it, but if its a random slaverat inside a horde, chances are good, a stray Hagbane arrow or high cleave swing killing it before you can.
Or maybe its a special, where people will shoot it because its a threat.
(For example: Letting a storm walz through half your team, just so the BH can get a small buff to CD regen generally doesnt sound like a good idea. Especially when he has like 50 tries in a match.)

TL;DR
Everyone can see, but either the target becomes a victim to cleave or its a high threat target that needs to be dealt with fast

I like these in most of part.

Especially this part.

It should be, imo.

I think the second headshot should give 20% CDR instead giving up to 60%.

1 Like

I literally made an account to reply to this post because I genuinely want Fat Shark to see that not everyone thinks all these changes should make it anywhere near the BBB/live.

Warfunding passive:
-Why? Bounty hunter already has so many ways to get ammo it’s actually ridiculous that you suggest it be built into his kit even more. We don’t need BH to become as brainless as Huntsman has become with Sure Shot. On the BBB you can get ammo back with scrounger, headshots(if you take conservative for some reason), and melee kill reload and these are more than enough.

Necessary means:
-This is the only idea that I actually think is a good idea. The current BBB version is terrible and lacks synergy with anything.

Weight of fire:
-The regular crossbow does not need a buff on BH. Even on the BBB it’s still arguably his strongest single target secondary even over the Volley at the trade off of losing fast burst damage.

Swap buff:
-The change on the BBB itself is very meh and I’m not sure what your change would do to improve its pick rate on the high end.

Cruel Fortune:
-Arbitrary change to buff the repeater when the repeater itself is the issue(and it nerfs his crossbow which is in a decent place).

Melee kill reload:
-It’s strong enough as is and would most likely break in practice.

Just Reward:
-Generic enemy type is fine since you have to kill it yourself.
-Getting an impossible enemy is a design flaw that should be fixed.
-Teammates killing enemies and denying you the buff is part of team play and it’s fine to have an inherent downside on a skill that has a very low skill cap to begin with.

Doubleshotted:
Here’s the meaty one.
-You are just arbitrarily nerfing this skill even though the other 2 are terrible even with your suggestions.
-You literally have to hit a head shot to to get the CDR. Waystalker, for example, has Piercing Shot which has the exact same effect with 100% CDR on headshot, but you want to nerf the boss killer? It makes no sense to punish players for picking a talent that rewards skill and punishes a body shot/miss entirely. Your idea of Just Reward giving you the bonus even if your teammate gets the kill is the polar opposite and gives the bonus for you simply existing and that’s why I don’t think you quite get the balancing of Double Shotted.

Buckshot:
-This skill is beyond saving. It’s just bad and if buffed to be worth taking it would have to be overtuned.

BoP:
-BoP is fine, especially with the melee kill reload we have on the BBB.

Volley Crossbow:
-The only issue is that it’s built around having X number of clips and this would make the weapon awkward in that regard. Also, you have to consider Zealot as well, balancing around 2/3 classes doesn’t make sense.

Crossbow:
-It’s fine.

Repeater Pistol:
-Needs a damage buff rather than an ammo buff. As it is now, it’s just a less accurate and more spammy BoP with less damage because of this.

tl;dr I agree with some very specific ideas you have, but gutting talents/weapons simply because the others under perform makes no sense.

1 Like

Just noticed the idea of teammates seeing the Just Reward target and I do fully agree with that idea. As long as it’s not something where they do it for you that’s way more reasonable.

Drink a purple pot, hit the first headshot and you stagger lock the boss to death. There’s literally nothing the boss can do after you hit the first headshot, it can’t recover before you Ult again. You don’t need CDR, you literally only need a purple pot and to land 1 headshot, it’s completely free from there.

The major difference with Piercing Shot is it doesn’t stagger, so is incapable of literally holding a boss in place till it dies. If you think any class should get a talent that completely trivialises bosses with a single headshot, I honestly don’t know what to say.

Double shotted 100% needs to be nerfed. No I don’t have an axe to grind, I’ve mained BH since pre release beta and this talent is just idiotic.

2 Likes

“Drink a purple pot.” Imagine that, a boss killer can kill a boss when he gets the potion that let’s him spam his ult when hitting head shots. Pyro and Grail Knight can literally do the exact same thing with purple pot with the exact same amount of stun without head shots(Pyro can even get rng to do it without the pot).

As a BH you also need to have clear space so you don’t get hit/aim punched while killing the boss. Literally all of BH’s ults stagger bosses, that’s not exclusive to Double Shot and that’s just another reason for why your nerf logic is terrible. Guess we should nerf Grail Knight and Pyro while we’re at it since a limited boost can let them trivialize bosses.

The reason I made a comparison to Waystalker’s Piercing Shot is because she get’s a full refund. You can trivialize any boss in the game as long as you know how to press “S” in between shots. And that ignores that the only reason Waystalker’s shot doesn’t stun bosses is because she’s not even a boss killer to begin with.

You’re beyond help if you think a non-bossing career with a potential of a 100% uptime ult that does the same damage as BH’s base ult and can be spammed to clear elites in addition to bosses is on par with a boss killing career’s ult that needs a potion to trivialize a single boss.

Edit: Also, the situation in which you actually get to stun lock a boss is not as simple as, “drink the pot.” You have to have cleared the mobs around it, you have to maintain aggro, have a good area to either pin them against a wall or have a relatively clear area to follow up, know each bosses animations, know where there head is in all the smoke your ult creates, and you have to keep hitting head shots. The fact that you think it’s as simple as “drink potion + hit one head shot = stun lock boss” speaks for your experience in itself.

And how many BHs do you get in pubs that actually pull this off? I can literally think of one that doesn’t have thousands of hours in the game. Wanting to nerf something because good players know how, when, and where to utilize it is dumb and punishes good players.

No you just don’t know what you’re talking about. I’m fairly certain BH double shotted is literally the only Ult that, with a purple pot, lets you Ult before the boss has recovered from the previous stagger, while doing very high damage at the same time (it’s one or the other for everyone else).

Also whether or not BH’s role is or should be a boss killer is extremely questionable. What a rubbish role boss killer is. People like you won’t let him be buffed in other ways though, because you refuse to let go of this dumb, dumb talent, and half the community wrongly thinks he’s broken just because of it. Just ditch the 80% CDR it’s not worth it.

It sounds a lot to me like you just want your boss deletion crutch, which honestly, BH doesn’t even need to kill bosses damn quick. Without it the boss at least gets to have a turn though. I don’t care if it was a lot harder to pull off (it’s not hard at all lol), no career should be able to lock down & solo DPS an entire boss health bar on their own. That’s dumb. Literally your team just needs to hand you a purple then keep adds off your back. That’s not strategy.

Personally, I’d like to see the ult be made less potent against bosses (cooldown reduction could be nerfed to 50% and only require one headshot) and made more versatile by being given increased cleave. It currently kills two armoured elites. Killing four SV but keeping it at two CWs would be a good start. I also think the ult’s animation could be made faster and BH given other ways/talents to reduce their ult’s cooldown. I also wouldn’t be against the ult’s damage be increased a small amount.

Piercing Shot is a very memey and easily overpowered ult talent that doesn’t get used often because Waystalker’s base ult is so much easier to use and better for specials. It’s got the fastest CW kill time in the game, even when compared to Double Shotted or Huntsmen’s entire kit. It’s very clearly imbalanced by the standards of most of the players here.

The stagger keeps the boss in place. This makes subsequent headshots less difficult for most of us.

BH with BoP is pointless and brings nothing over WHC/Zealot besides ammo sustain those two don’t need. It needs a better synergy with BH, either through changing BoP or BH’s kit a little bit to have better options for multi shot weapons. There’s a oneshot breakpoint for most of the specials and SV but that’s pretty underwhelming for how often it’s up. It has fairly weak ammo sustain for the number of shots enemies take from it/how often it has to be spammed, which is made worse by the amount of investment in power instead of sustain has to be made to reach reasonable breakpoints for a range career.

The Crossbow is fine on BH. It works well and lets them excel at sniping. Synergises very well with the passive, so it probably should be left as is.

Having a crit every 10 or 6 seconds itself is underwhelming dps wise compared to any other range career. BH is a good sniper and that’s it.

They could make the weapon swap buff talent last for 10 seconds instead of lasting for a set amount of stacks and be based off of a certain number of hits or on killing an enemy e.g. Two range shots activate the melee buff, hitting three enemies (so an Axe swings three times, but a Greatsword could get away with swinging once into a horde) with melee hits activate the range buff. They could add the crit reset on top.

BH’s base ult also needs a buff to justify the other two ult talents in the first place.

1 Like

Wait, whoa whoa whoa, do we actually agree about his ult? “Half the community wrongly thinks he’s broken just because of it.” With the BBB changes he fills so many roles whether it’s boss killing or crowd clearing or even elite/special clearing he can literally do it all, but you’re saying because I want his best ult to remain and the others to be brought on par that I want him to be locked into being exclusively a boss killer? I think you’re misunderstanding me.

Buck shot is terrible even as a crowd clearing skill and it has a full cool down. It does what you can do with his ranged weapons, but it does it worse even with full pellet stacks and it will never be what the casual players want unless it gets to the point of being over-tuned. Just Reward only needs a few tweaks to be worth taking. If you’re playing on Legend/Cata and can get stacks early it surpasses double shotted because you don’t even have to headshot and you get the massive cool down bonus, but currently it’s locked behind rng and poor design.

Also, in response to your first comment about the purple pot, pyro’s crit refund ult does it better and if you are willing to go into high overheat and get close to a boss you can spam your ult as fast as you hit the boss. I’m genuinely surprised by how few pyros I actually see using this and it makes me sad. I get your frustration, but we shouldn’t nerf a skill because high skill players use it well.

I can see why you might see this as broken on champ or maybe even legend, but the game has so many higher difficulties than these two. I’m struggling with the logic because it’s like nerfing Shade’s bossing potential because someone can use her well(again, a good shade is about as rare as a good bounty hunter).

And in response to Velsix:
If double shotted was to be nerfed to this degree I would expect it to do a lot more damage even with the pierce on elites(but why would you nerf it’s cool down and then make Just Reward do the same thing, but better?). Also, hot take:
" Edit: I regret making this post or ever supporting the idea. I hope the new flinch change gets reverted."

BH does more than snipe enemies and it’s fine if that’s how you use him, but that’s not his only use with the BBB changes now in place. And on the idea of buffing the base ult, that doesn’t fix your issue with Double shotted, it just moves it over to Just Reward with a lesser requirement since now I can drastically reduce my cool down without even putting in the effort of hitting head shots. I don’t think you quite see the implications of your idea.

Edit: I guess I should put out my own ideas for the ults if I’m being critical of yours:

Just Reward:
First and foremost, address its ease of use(lack thereof). Show teammates the target, make elites and specials currently spawned or about to spawn the priority for the target pool, cap the CDR at %80-90 with the trade off of reduced damage verse bosses and increased cleave against armor/specials.

Buck Shot:
Not gonna lie, this one just sucks in terms of balancing, but the easiest change that would greatly improve its place as the horde clearing ult would be(from what it has now on the BBB) to increase its cleave by a lot(30-40%?) against berserkers and infantry while reducing damage vs armor. As it it now, it’s just a worse version of the Volley Crossbow(even pre-buff).

Agreed.

Pyro is one of the few classes I don’t have many hours in, I’ll take your word for it. I don’t think it’s just a matter of using it well though. It’s that it literally holds the boss in place for the duration that I have an issue with. It’s not that high skill at all IMO, at least regarding double shotted.

I almost exclusively solo legend with bots, or play Cata, for what it’s worth. Again, it’s not about doing impressive things with high skill, it’s about literally soloing a boss while the boss literally can’t fight back. That’s what I object to.

I think rather than removing the stagger from BH, a better solution would be to prevent stagger on an already staggered boss. That way if you want to stagger to boss repeatedly you actually need to time the shots and the spacing between them rather than simply"ult, ult, ult." I don’t see the issue with staggering a single boss, but I can see why you would want to up the skill cap on doing so.

2 Likes

Yeah that was embarrassing. Why bring it up here though and not in the flinch thread?

The ult’s sniper bullets base headshot multiplier could be buffed. The base headshot damage increase is pretty small for bosses (according to the breakpoint calc it goes from 179.06 on crit bodyshot to 189.81 on crit headshot. That becomes 346.76 on crit bodyshot and 372.96 on crit headshot with 40% crit power, Open Wounds, Enhanced Power, Hunter and 10% Chaos/Skaven.

How about this: Every headshot the sniper bullets get allow them to cleave an additional target. This could either be during the ult itself, (so they keep going until they bodyshot) or be added as cleave increasing stacks for the next ult like the current shotgun ult talent does (up to whatever is a reasonable amount). If possible (depends on how the game handles hit detection, enemy death and shields) headshots penetrate shields. Nerf the cooldown reduction to 50%. This would increase it’s versatility, make it less spammy and lessen it’s control. Then buff the headshot multiplier by a reasonable amount for the sniper bullet so it does significant damage to bosses on headshot.

I’m fine with Double-shotted being good for killing/damaging bosses, but not with the control it brings. It makes bosses a non-threat in a way other careers don’t, or I feel shouldn’t be capable of. Less cooldown and higher damage achieves a better balance better in my opinion. Grail Knight doesn’t have nearly as much cooldown reduction as BH does, and Pyro doesn’t do it nearly as well as BH because they rely on RNG for it, and even then, their ult’s crit headshot damage doesn’t do as much as BH’s Double-shotted ult does without crits on headshot (when both are stacked for crit power/range damage). It does do more damage with it’s crit on bodyshot than Double-shotted does on non-crit bodyshot, but it’s not by a significant amount (again this is from the breakpoint calc).

I’ve been trying to get BH to be effective outside of the Crossbow and the Volley Crossbow. They nerfed the Volley’s cleave so that it can’t cleave Marauders anymore, so I’m dubious of it’s effectiveness now. Any build recommendations?

1 Like

I personally have been using the Volley and it feels nice in hordes. If a bunch of marauders are in the mix I just ult them first before throwing a few shots out. The clear still feels very good if you do ult the elites mixed in. I do want Just Reward to feel better because it would be leagues above Double Shotted when combined with the Volley Crossbow in that build, but as everyone has seen it just under performs too much to properly replace the secondary as an elite killer in that build.

My big remaining gripe with BH, aside from the ults, is the Repeater pistol just being awful in general. The BoP feel okay with the melee kill reload talent, but as you said the crossbows just do better. I’m just not sure how you could buff them on BH without them being arguably over tuned on WHC.

2 Likes

You don’t remove crit reset, which is what made BoP and RP viable. (On BH only)

Too bad FS have no understanding of their own game, and neither does the majority of the people making suggestions here.

First of thanks for the very detailed response

Well he basically has only two options for ammo gain right now. Either wait til he gets zero ammo, kill an elite by melee, bomb or ult to gain ammo or you are forced to use scrounger. Forcing scrounger deprives him of skills like resourceful sharpshooter or Hunter that fit well with his guaranteed range crits.

My intention was to remove the need to wait for absolut zero ammo for his carrer ammo gain to work. As compensation for that the ammo gained is reduced to 10% with the option to increase to 15% (on live he even gets 30% when out of ammo)

With all the other proposed talent changes this encourages the player to kill the odd elite by melee instead of simply blasting everything with crossbow/BoP.

I agree, that crossbow doesnt need a boost. He would gain 2% power (up from 1% now) which isnt really usefull anyway. Its meant to make the other weapons more viable. And not further boost crossbow.

The formula making it percent of max ammo was added as an option to still give crossbow talent options in this row besides open wounds.

This would however be the worse option for every other gun overall for whom this change is intended.

Giving melee stacks per ammo spent has great synergy with melee power on low magazine.

Essentially after RP altfire/volley bursts you gain 30% melee power for a significant ammount of hits. Which in turn can be used to kill elites (regaining some of that ammo you spent and reloading parts of your magazine with reload on kill)

At each own most of my talent changes are rather meh, but they create very very high synergy between each other and with various weapons, thus increasing viable build diversity.

BBB talent right now isnt usefull enough alone.

  • stacks sometimes dont trigger damage bonus (at least in keep)
  • Rapier gains damage bonus from ranged and melee buff leading to 30% boost depending on stacks.
  • 6 melee attacks isnt enough impact if you even get that high (RP altfire gives one stack/ Volley crossbow gives 5 when you only altfire)

Fixing the first two is FS‘s duty. My change adresses the last part. Making it more viable with 2/4 of his weapons.

Not only more benefit to RP, but also to VXBow and a smaller degree BoP when burst firing. Every ammo spent giving one second means VXBow can essentially have every fourth volley crit. Increasing its burst potential (downside of 4s reload limits its continuous damage).

Bop with its extreme firerate can reduce the CD by 4 additional seconds in a 1 second timeframe.

The nerf to crossbow here is the only change that affects a weapon negatively.

From a 4 second reduction its down to a 1-3 second reduction. (Depending on how fast you can aim and how many bolts you want to shoot without guaranteed crit)

I dont think its actually that problematic, as mathematically this is the worst talent for Crossbow as of right now in the BBB:

  • Cata - with +15 power from weapon swap and +20% vs armor: Oneshot bodyshot Gutter Runner, Ratling, Flamer. Oneshot Headshot all other specials/elite except CW and Mauler
  • Legend - with 15% power from weapon swap and 20% vs infantry: oneshot bodyshot any special (except wargor because of superarmor) twoshot bodyshot all elites except CW / oneshot headshot all elites except Mauler and CW

Weapon swap has basically 100% range buff uptime with crossbow. Slap 20% power vs on top and you get very good Breakpoints without ever needing to crit in the first place.

As for ammo sustain via scrounger (not considering random crits in between):

Cruel Fortune - 1 ammo gain every 6 seconds = 1,67 ammo gain every 10 seconds

Weapon Swap Buff - 1 ammo gain every 10 seconds + 15% power

Prize Bounty - 2 ammo gain every 10 seconds.

So gameplay with crossbow has 2 viable alternatives in that row even with the changes I suggest, while the other weapons get a boost to burst damage, opening up different playstyles/combos.

I presume this is concerning the 20% magazine part. True that is a significant buff to 3/4 weapons, that probably isnt needed. Thats why I suggested is as an alternative option should those weapons underperform. Personally im fine with leaving it at 1 ammo as that fills up very quick anyway.

If its concerning the +50% to warfunding part, 15% ammo on elite kill means 7 elites instead of 10 from zero to 100% ammo. I think thats not a gamebreaking addition and helps sustain for the more ammohungry guns should you need/want it. You are giving up 30% DR for this, so it should have some oomph in return IMO.

Split up the answer because the rest is already half a book and his ult is always a precarious topic in itself.

Thats basically my intention. Everyone can see the outline, but only BH gets the 20% CD regen, and ONLY if HE kills the enemy.
If anyone else kills it, nothing happens.

A friendly team will leave that enemy alone if they can, so that BH will get the kill. But there are situations where it just isnt logical to wait.
Eg a special getting ready to shoot/ incapacitating another teammate/ random slaverat in the middle of a horde right in front of you.

I am not arbitrarily nerfing the skill, as others have proven by now. Aim is to avoid the staggerlock. I too think the talent isnt too strong with the 80% CDR and stagger, but its just a fact that its way too easy to kill bosses with a purple pot that way.

Ive been thinking about the inherent deminishing return of cooldown regen compared to cooldown reduction thanks too your comment on just reward and i think i have found the optimal compromise:

Instead of 40% CDR per headshot, this talent should give 200% cooldown regeneration per Headshot until the Ult is ready again. This solves the stagger lock problem while not reducing the talents value:

IIRC Purple Pot gives +900% cooldown regeneration for 10s.

Right now:

Without 10% CDR trinket, without PP:
No headshot 70s
1 headshot 42s
2 headshots 14s
3 headshots 0s

Without 10% CDR trinket, with PP:
No headshot 7s
1 headshot 4.2s
2 headshots 1.4s
3 headshots 0s

With 10% CDR trinket, without PP:
No headshot 63s
1 headshot 35s
2 headshots 7s
3 headshots 0s

With 10% CDR trinket, with PP:
No headshot 6.3s
1 headshot 3.5s
2 headshots 0.7s
3 headshots 0s

With 200% regen instead of 40% reduction:

Without 10% CDR trinket, without PP:
No headshot 70s
1 headshot 23.3s
2 headshots 14s
3 headshots 10s

Without 10% CDR trinket, with PP:
No headshot 7s
1 headshot 6.36s
2 headshots 5s
3 headshots 4.38s

With 10% CDR trinket, without PP:
No headshot 63s
1 headshot 21s
2 headshots 12.6s
3 headshots 9s

With 10% CDR trinket, with PP:
No headshot 6.3s
1 headshot 5.83s
2 headshots 4.5s
3 headshots 3,94s

This way only the talent remains at 14s with double headshot, only Purple Pot remains at 7 and together they are at 5s (formerly 1.4) this should take care of staggerlocking abuse on bosses while also taking care of multi ult into hordes at the same time.

Why not apply it here as well?

Buckshot:
Shield penetration
Increase cleave (especially through armor)(Not sure about the cleave formula so i cant give a non arbitrary number here)
+50% cooldown regeneration for every enemy hit until the Ult is ready again.

No benefit of ulting into thin air (duh)
Increasingly usefull, the more enemies you hit.

47s cooldown when you have to use it against a single target (eg berserker/rasknitt/nurgloth)
Eg hitting 6 clanrats results in 17.5s CD
12 would result in 10s CD

So on high density your ult becomes better (even if it doesnt kill everything it staggers them and gives breathing room at a relatively low cooldown.

This way we have 3 options:

  • Jack of all trades with increasingly lower CD
  • Singletarget damage that cant be used to staggerabuse
  • Crowd Control that gets better, the more you are overwhelmed by enemies.

Edit: Changed spacing for better readability (original answer was on phone and got screwed up)

Oh yeah, forgot the Ammo suggestions.

the increase of 6 ammo isnt large and is mainly to give scrounger that little extra kick to ammo sustain on BoP with the BH, while being low enough not to effect WHC

I know its a bit odd, but WHC with +30% and BH with his +50% end up with not fitting numbers anyway. The ammo reduction is intended to hurt only WHCs ammo Sustain through scrounger as it is too high IMO.
WHC can go for crit and +30% ammo. this means he gets 59 ammo right now so scrounger returns 3 ammo.
WHC can have high crit (base 5, passive 5,weapon 5, trinket 5, wild fervor 5 ,(and even Huntsman aura 5 on top)) wild vervor and huntsman aside thats 20% chance to gain 3 ammo while costing 1 ammo. thats 60% chance to come out even every 3 arrows
With his ult his crit is increased to 45%. which reaches levels where he can reliably gain more ammo than he uses up.
(He can ult, shoot 5 volleys and will on average gain 20 ammo while using 15.)
with 45 base ammo WHC can pretty much indefinately fire ranged attacks (especially with wild fervour active and/or huntsman in the team)
I doubt that FS intended for any non ranged career to have this kind of reliable ammo sustain (as seen with the recent Blodfletcher nerf on shade)
I didnt include Zealot in my explanation, as his ammo gain isnt as broken. even with smite, he needs 4 arrows and then a volley (7 overall) to gain 6 ammo. on pure range this isnt sustainable indefinately (very long though, I’ll give you that)

I don’t see its spammyness as a disadvantage. It’s good for players with not so great aim and the altfire sure has its uses. It can still kill elites and specials relatively fast (albeit taking lots of ammo, hence my suggested buff)
I would have suggested 60 base ammo, so that WHC also gets 4 ammo on scrounger for better sustain, but that leaves BH at 90, which sounds kinda too high.

for sake of curiosity, which talents/weapons especially do you feel gutted by my suggestions?

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