Bounty Hunter in the current Beta – Issues and Suggestions

The Issue: Too much discrepancy between the power of each ranged weapon. BH is super powerful with Crossbow and Volley Crossbow and can easily sustain his ammo with these two weapons without utilizing Melee Kill Reload (at zero ammo), while Brace of Pistols and Repeater are much less powerful and require either utilizing Melee Kill Reload for ammo sustain or greatly limiting the consumption of ammo.

In my opinion, this issue can’t be resolved within the current framework, so it requires changing said framework.

Suggested Changes

Blessed Shots (passive)
Current version: Guaranteed ranged critical hit every 10 seconds.
Suggested version: Guaranteed ranged critical hit every X seconds (depending on the equipped ranged weapon). Ranged critical hits no longer occur randomly.
Values of X: ~10 for Crossbow, ~10 for Volley Crossbow, ~6 for Repeater, ~4 for Brace of Pistols.

Why this change? Different weapons scale differently with crits, and gain different amount of ammo on crits with Scrounger. Tweaking individual cooldown for each weapon will allow the devs to better balance these weapons for BH. Removal of random crits will further help with making ammo sustain more controlled. Crit Chance on gear will only affect melee weapons, but the player will have an option to pick a “reset ranged crit cooldown upon scoring a melee crit” talent.

Why such a low cooldown for Repeater? Repeater consumes 8 shots with its alt-fire (shotgun blast), and due to being a hit-scan weapon it only replenishes 3 rounds with an alt-fire crit, even if all pellets hit. This means that the player will be forced to use Prize Bounty talent if they want to utilize the alt-fire. Unlike the Repeater, Volley Crossbow spends 3 shots with alt fire and replenishes 9 shots with a crit, so it has a naturally higher ammo sustain.

Lvl 10 talents
Last Shot Power (gain attack speed upon firing last shot)
Replace with the current version of Weapon Swap Buff talent (buff melee damage by scoring ranged hits and vice versa)

Why? I don’t think the minigame of “spend all ammo to get a buff then kill an elite to get a little ammo” works well in Vermintide. In clutch situations, that’s just too much micromanagement – you’ll often end up facing two Gutter Runners while having zero ammo. The Weapon Swap Buff talent creates interesting gameplay and should be a good alternative to other talents in this row. The original spot of this talent will be freed in order to add the “reset ranged crit CD upon scoring a melee crit” talent.

Lvl 20 talents

Weapon Swap Buff
Replace with a new talent: Upon scoring a melee crit, reset the cooldown of Blessed Shots
Why? This will let the player further reinforce the synergy between melee and ranged, in conjunction with the Melee Kill Reload talent.

Cruel Fortune
Current Version: Reduce the cooldown of Blessed Shots to 6 seconds.
Suggested Version: Reduce the cooldown of Blessed Shots by ~35%.

Lvl 25 talents
Melee Kill Reload
Current version: Killing an elite while out of ammo restores 20% of max ammo. Each melee kill reloads one round into your ranged weapon’s clip
Suggested version: Each melee kill reloads ~25% of your ranged weapon’s clip (but at least 1)

Why? I suggest removing the ammo sustain mechanics from this talent because of the reasons stated above (too inconvenient, and often there will be no elites in sight when you need ammo, especially during Lord fights). The ammo sustain mechanic will be moved to a lvl. 30 talent. Changing the reload mechanics to restore a percentage of the clip rather than 1 round will make it more effective on weapons other than Crossbow.

Lvl 30 talents

Bounty Hunting
Current version: Permanently increase ult cooldown rate upon killing a “marked” target.
Suggested version: Replenish ~20% of max ammo upon scoring a headshot with your ult.

Why? The current implementation of Bounty Hunt doesn’t work very well and many players don’t find it fun. I suggest turning it into “additional ammo sustain” talent that shouldn’t feel mandatory – players can take this talent if they are struggling to sustain their ammo through Blessed Shots / Scrounger, otherwise they can take a talent that brings extra power.

Double Shotted
Current version: Fires twice and restores 40% cooldown upon headshot.
Suggested version: keep it the same but fix it so that it never restores more than 40% cooldown.

Why? This talent has always been dominant. Changing the effective CDR from 80% to 40% will make this talent less effective against bosses.

New Shotgun
Current version: Fire a shotgun blast that pierces shields and gets more powerful with each use.
Suggested version: Fire a shotgun blast that pierces shields and is similar in power to a Blunderbuss shot. Reduce the base cooldown to ~20 seconds.

Why? The only advantage a shotgun blast ult might have against a sniper shot ult is if it can be effectively used to kill hordes. And for that application, it has to have a low enough cooldown. You give up sniping, oneshotting Chaos Warriors and heavily damaging/staggering bosses for that, so it should be fair.

That’s it, thanks for reading!

6 Likes

Well Brace only has a Reload now because of BH. So they could actually DO something with the weapon as some kind of advantage, which in the end was pretty pointless.

Its former Advantage over the other weapons was that you never had to reload it. So when they changed it and added a reload it just created problems where there was none before.

Its another one of those things that never should have been added, it never caused any real problems in the first place.

You could use as much ammo as you needed, but that was also the downside too because if you didn’t pay attention, you went through ammo too quick.

Previously with no clip… it did allow the Brace of Pistols to Flex enough to equate out to the other weapons.

I still remember the times where Brace didn’t have a clip, and I believe it was still greatly inferior to Crossbow in the hands of a BH back then. You could shoot Crossbow all day without running out of ammo, while with Brace you had to save your ammo. Also the value of each individual Crit is much higher on Crossbow than on Brace because the latter gets too little bonus damage on crits.

Honestly its hard to deny that,

It was always hard for the Bounty Hunter to make use of the Brace of Pistols even back then and after the buffs.

Adding the Clip to it just exacerbated the problem. At least prior with Bounty Hunter you COULD at least Empty your ammo to in an emergency situation save everyone’s bacon. Sure it wasn’t the best at sniping, nor elite killing, nor horde clearing, but it could be used as a boss killer in those circumstances.

Now it really can’t be. The Clip needs to be removed.

This seems whole lot better than current BBB.

Reasonable changes. Always wanted to make a viable BH pistol build for Cata that doesn’t run out of ammo constantly and doesn’t have to give up the DMG reduction talent. Unfortunately, that is not really possible right now so I’d love to see some of the changes you listed, in the new Beta.

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Back in the day, that magazine change was to counterbalance them giving it a ton of monster damage, which was a fair change. But then later they removed the monster damage but kept the magazine change, which sucks.

I like BoP on WHC and Zealot, just as a quick way to put out burst damage vs specials, but it really doesn’t serve a purpose on BH. BH can do the same thing with xbow as he can with BoP, only to much greater effect and no super long reloads.

2 Likes

They didn’t remove the monster damage – it kills a Cata Packmaster in 2 shots, while it used to take 4 or 5 shots when it had no magazine.

Remove may have been a poor choice of words. They reduced it a lot when WoM dropped. Before then, you could chug a str pot and delete half of a legend boss’ hp bar with one magazine, whereas now the BoP has very poor boss damage.

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Yeah that’s really the case, though it wasn’t quite half, it was closer to 1/3rd.

And it was more of a round about way… Previously they jacked up the Strength Potion modifier for BoP. When they removed that it also removed all the actual Boss Damage it did.

So they could just as well remove the Clip at this point.

Again it was all pointless.

2 Likes

Yeah it’d be nice if they ditched the magazine. BoP having a bottomless mag size was always the most interesting part about it imo. Plus, in the game’s current state on Cata, the damage potential of BoP really doesn’t need the mitigation of a long reload, since it takes 2-4 shots to kill most elites or specials, the boss damage is low, and it has almost no cleave.

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I’m not even a BH player and I’ve had no issue playing BoP pre or post beta… You just run the Elites give ammo back… What?

They’ve even buffed that build by merging it with the reload. So you can run ‘Weapon Swap Buff’ and the Elite Ammo + Reload.

BoP can hit the 1 shot Gutter Runner breakpoint and is one of the best Ranged Weapons in the game for Special/Elite killing, only weaker than Repeater Handgun (Kruber) when it comes to uptime. The reload Talent removes that downside completely.

BoP on WHC and Zealot is also completely fine, and kind of dumb on Zealot, since he gets Power from his Passive to range.

I play BoP on BH more than any other Saltz Career even though I barely play it and do just fine damage, clear out Specials, have ammo for Elites and can spam Bosses or just use the OP Ult. Not sure why people are trying to imply it’s anything other than fine tbh.

Please respond with gameplay footage if you think it’s weak. I want to understand why.

Is it literally because it’s not as broken as other things? lol

2 Likes

The problem isn’t that you can’t play a BH with BoP effectively. You can.

It’s that a BH with Crossbow is so much stronger, and can easily sustain his ammo without the Elite Ammo talent. Have you tried playing with Crossbow, Scrounger and Cruel Fortune?

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I’m sorry, but you’re literally saying you want it to be more OP for the sake of it.

This. No one is saying the BoP is not viable, and in fact it’s my weapon of choice on WHC or Zealot. But xbow on BH does every single thing better than BoP, from special sniping to elite killing to horde thinning to boss damage.

2 Likes

I don’t want to be OP, I want to have fun. In the current version, I feel OP when I run crossbow, and I feel weak when I run BoP/Repeater.

The changes that I propose should both tone down Crossbow/Volleybow, and buff BoP/Repeater.

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Repeater sucks, I’ll agree there.

BoP already got 2 buffs with Weapon Switch Talent and Elites = Ammo + reload.

It got 2 buffs in BBB, which also made it more fun to play.

  • Less time reloading
  • Nice synergy with melee switching
  • Damage increase from using melee (I’m not even sure what breakpoints you can now hit with this, but if it gives you any more than GR 1shot then GG it got buffed)

Also the reason the Elite kill = Ammo + Reload cancels out the DMGR Talent, is that you spend more time in Melee and therefore farm more THP.

It’s a sustain Weapon and not a burst one.

Its because you can do all of that and more with X-Bow, and now Volley, though I have not looked at Volley on BH after the change.

You say you can do all of it fine on BH with BoP… but the kill numbers, and boss mob numbers are significantly lower when you use that over other things.

Its simply not competetive post WoM.

Prior at least it had Boss Mob damage advantage, now it no longer does. Ergo… why its now completely pointless to even have the Clip anymore.


History for those that don’t know… it used to have no Clip… but people made an issue out of a non issue… and claimed that it somehow was “unbalancing” when flatly it wasn’t (kinda like the “Flinching” thing of today.

So Fat Shark… in order to give the BoP a Niche… added the Clip and the increased damage with Strength Potion.

Then… stupidly… removed the Str potion multiplier damage… leaving the Clip intact… which of course snowballed wrecking the BoP build for BH… and causing the current reason WE are now in a BBB again.

Another example of… Should have left well enough alone.

If they hadn’t added the Clip in the first place… nor the Str Pot multiplier… everything would have been fine.

You’re asking for buffs to something that’s completely viable, just because you percieve other things to be stronger. I’m not even sure that they are stronger with the new buffs to BoP.

They just buffed it twice:

Weapon Switch Talent:
Unsure what breakpoints you can reach, but if it’s more than Gutter Runner 1shot, then it got buffed.

Synergizes well with the Melee Kill Reload Talent, obviously.

Melee Kill Reload:
You should have been running Elite kills = Ammo with BoP Pre-BBB, anyway. So, now that they’ve given you a Reload, which is the only downside of BoP, it’s buffed it way more than enough.

BoP:
BoP is already one of the best Special killers in the game, because of it’s fire rate, ammo capacity, and the fact that it’s almost hit scan. It’s only rival is Repeater Handgun (Kruber), which it is now better than on BH because of the new buffs to it’s damage and removal of the need to reload.

You’re not even hiding the fact that you’re asking for buffs to a viable Weapon for no reason either, because you’re even focusing on Saltz Ranged Career to do so. BoP is good on all of his Careers, and especially BH.

TLDR:
They buffed it’s damage.
They buffed it’s reload.
You’re asking for more buffs.

2 Likes

Incorrect.

The very reason we’re even talking about BH is because they were underperforming on Live… and yes thats WITH BoP too.

I just directly told you why…

You ignored it.

They BUFFED all those things originally on BoP originally in the last BBB for BH… only to screw it all up later and cause the very problem that was SOLVED after the last BBB.

Ergo… why you actually started SEEING BoP builds on BH in the first place.

Well… until the Fiasco I just told you about… and why we’re here today AGAIN. They should have just left well enough alone… never added the Clip NOR the STR Pot Multiplier… and everything would have been just fine…

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