Billhook Overtuned?

Let me start by saying that I want to open a discussion about the billhook, because my feeling is this weapon is incredible at the moment. The argument to nerf xsword was it was too good at everything… but isn’t this weapon just a better thing with less alpha strike damage, but a billion times better mobility? Currently I feel like this is a weapon with no weakness and absurd output, and unlike old xsword that only truly shined on merc, this thing is incredible on all victor classes.

Thoughts? I’d love for some other people’s feedback on how they feel this thing is performing for them, or if I’m just crazy.

99 dodges at 1.1 dodge distance
Safe, fast, decent range high armor damage with good headshot angle and high finesse multiplier
Good cleave for horde
“High skill” weapon special that CCs even chaos warriors and berzerkers

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The Billhook is being nerfed to 3 dodges and buffed to a dodge distance of 1.15 (overall good nerf). It still has too much damage and the special gives too much value in team contexts.

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Truly your comment is very well written and inspired :slight_smile:

But as velsix said the beta did nerf the number of dodges. It might still be top pick on all his careers pretty much, but I only like it on bounty hunter funnily enough.

Definitely agree on the special, should probably just give it a stamina cost or something. Such insane single target control should come at a cost, and making you choose between horde control or single target control seems like a good one to me.

Being able to just completely neuter basically any sub-monster threat in the game is silly.

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The reason it’s considered ‘high skill’ is because it’s not as simple as xsword, i requires alt attack usage etc. In my opinion it just take a while to get used to, you don’t have to be a god gamer to use it. (You probably meant that by putting inbetween " " )

Dodges got nerfed, as mentioned, good change

It’s a very safe weapon due to alt attack and range. Good on bh.

Fast, i wouldn’t call it that. It’s a slower weapon then, maybe it’s the same attack speed as 2h sword not sure, but 1h and dual wield are faster. This does get negelected by Swift slaying. (For example, push attacking combo can make you vulberable if you aren’t used to the speed or range of the weapon). Or mercenary or even tag talent on whc.
Edit: i’m actually not sure it’s slower then the dual wield weapon, it feels that way tho, especially the push attack combo.

The push attack combo is insanely good to score headshots with, which makes it great on every career but most importantly whc. The cost being that it costs stamina, which whc can just kinda bypass by using push stam regen talent + having stam recovery.

+1 on the special attack. It’s too good, it can crit aswell, resulting in passive proc from whc, can perma stagger multiple elites even on low attack speed careers, like bh, don’t get me started on zealot. No cost, no delay, high range, just free huge stagger.

Insanely good single target and boss dps.

I’m not sure what the solution is. One thing i can say for sure is something has to he done about the alt attack. I also would say his horde clear wouldn’t be good if zealot or whc didn’t have stamina recovery, it’s more balanced on bh where you actually feel the cost of push attacking. But that’s more a career talent issue rather then a weapon one.

The weapon was probably designed to have high single target, single target stagger, but low horde clear or alot of stam cost which could result in being overrun, but the community has found things to remove that downside. So another look at this weapon wouldn’t hurt tbh. (I’m ofcourse not sure this is the reason, i’m assuming).
Also it’s alot of whc and zealot making this weapon so effective. Playing it on bh feels a bit more balanced (still has insane stagger special tho)

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3 dodges and buffed to a dodge distance of 1.15

Ah, i missed that it got nerfed into a mobile weapon with roughly same dodging as 1hand hammer / dual hammers / 1hand sword.

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Regardless of whether it’s too strong or not, given the massive block movespeed slow, I don’t consider it a mobile weapon at all.

Billhook is powerful on all 3 Saltzypre careers but I would say it’s only over-tuned on WHC partially because of flense and WHC in general has a strong kit.
The combination of flense + high cleaving light 2 and push attack tips it over the edge.

Staggering any non-boss enemy -including chaos warriors- out of an attack makes the weapon very safe. Adding an internal cooldown or preventing CWs and potentially savages from being staggered might make the alt fire more balanced.

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It kinda blows now vs mixed hordes, you have to choose between staggering elites or pushing trash mobs for breathing room. Making the weapon special cost stamina would be horrible because when you don’t have stam to push attack -> L2, you’d have to just light attack and L3 is awful for hordes

Flense really gives it too much horde damage for its speed. It’s probably fine on Bounty Hunter. It definitely racks up a lot of kills on Zealot very easily.

I couldn’t care less about the special personally. I suppose I really was just saying to nerf it because a lot of other people feel that way about it. Sorry. It’s almost irrelevant to it’s dps profile which is very high vs all threats. I just think it attacks a bit fast/has too much monster damage.
A 5% reduction in attack speed (edit: I failed to clarify that I meant for the heavy and light stabs only) and a 15% reduction in monster damage would be enough for me. Then Flense needs a small nerf.

I personally would have given it 4 dodges. I very much enjoy how well it can kite, especially with it’s movement curve.

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People keep missing the point that it’s certain classes that make weapons weaker or stronger.
While I am fine with nerfing the dodge count, I wouldn’t agree with nerfing it further other than it’s special attack.
Same with Xsword, the weapon was absolutely fine on FK and Huntsman.
The class that made it seem strong was Merc due to his buffs.
That should be kept in mind when nerfing certain weapons and or talents of characters.

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It’s monster damage is on par with other stabby weapons, so nothing needs to change there and it’s damage is only high vs all threats if you headshot consistently. I don’t think reducing it’s regular attack speed would be good but making the special a bit slower sounds more reasonable. I think 4 dodges would have been better too.

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I’d argue the other weapons have too much monster damage too. I think we’ll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

I also personally think the Billhook has some of the best hitboxes in the game. It’s tied with Dual Daggers for me.

Yeah 3 dodges is weird. It’s clearly intended to have at the minimum decent mobility. I think that the reasoning was that it’s a two hander, but most two handed dps weapons have things like armour sliding to make up for their mobility. The Billhook only has the special, which it can’t use on multiple armoured targets at the same time.

I neglected to indicate I meant reducing the attack speed of the heavy stab and the light stab both by 5%. The other attacks are fine. I’ll change my original post to point out my error.

I think I’d just start with the flense nerf and go from there. I’m not convinced Bill Hook is really overtuned. It doesn’t feel that way on Bounty Hunter. I do think WHC and zealot have insane kits though.

I didn’t see it that way even on Live. I still prefer either Rapier or Axe/Falch to it.

But apparently there are other people who say that.

I found it quite inferior to both. Its weapon swings are narrow so you don’t hit much or many targets unless you use the Push Attack which is limited by Stamina and does not make up for the Wide Angle sweeps of the Axe/Falch or Rapier which allows for more heads in the swings and faster… nor the Double Headshots on Axe/Falch.

I fully suspect it will be nerfed again… but I don’t think that will have the effect that was intended.

The only real additional nerf I would agree with would be a reset time on the Alt-Fire so it can’t be spammed that fast, but its actually very low damage and can only be used to hold a chokepoint… and is completely inferior in an open field environment.

Not sure if I’d consider any of Saltz’ weapons to have good enough base stats besides the Billhook to be used on BH without sacrificing range dps (Rapier’s good for defense on BH but that just makes him a worse Spear Huntsmen with a nice dodge). Could be wrong about the Falchion though in the BB, or perhaps a Volley + 1h Axe combo. They hit a lot of specific breakpoints through WHC and Zealot that make them useful. For comparison, Kruber’s weapons tend to have high cleave, so even without talents/career passives they still work fairly well.

I’m undecided on Zealot at the moment. I want to see how WHC shapes up first. Couldn’t agree more about WHC, Flense gives them too much dps for a support dps hybrid.

Axe Falchion is pretty nuts in the beta because they didn’t nerf the Push stab. But yeah, pretty much everything works on BH now besides 2H sword and Flail.

Honestly I don’t use Flense on WHC on anything but the Rapier.
(I don’t use 2H Sword, because its weaker on WHC by nature as the job has almost no additional power on weapons)

And Flense doesn’t affect my kill ratio on Axe/Falch, so I use Deathknell which does.

Normal Axe, Flense has no effect on either, the entire weapon is designed around headshots and has very narrow diagonal swings.

And even with the changes and buffs to Falchion… I still cannot get it to come anywhere near Axe/Falch nor Rapier even with Flense.

And its pointless on Billhook because the damage is so high, given the ease at which you can headshot with normal swings (too narrow to be effective in a horde) it too is just like Axe and benefits more from Deathknell than from Flense.

You guys are WAAYYY overstating how useful Flense is.

Its only benefit is on low damage weapons in a horde, because no matter how wide the sweeps on a given weapon you’re not going to get all the heads there in the sweep, and on lower damaging weapons, sometimes its just enough to kill that slave rat anyway.

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I thought they nerfed it though. Did they revert the change?

Nah, you just don’t understand how good it is. Go do some testing. Even at 100% headshots, Flense does more damage in most scenarios. This is especially true on high cleave weapons and weapons with low headshot multipliers like 1H axe.

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