[BIG FOOTKNIGHT THREAD] Full Talents Rebalance/Reshuffle: my personal view

Premise:

I took a deep breath. If some people love the aggressive FK, there will be a reason… So I thought about a compromise. The number of aggressive talents will be the SAME as now (you will able to adopt an aggressive style even better than before) but, in my opinion, talents should be shuffled in a different way.

For example, level 10 tier, has more aggressive talents than defensive talents (and this, for a tank, it’s sad)… but, from the other side, level 25 tier has only defensive talents (sad for who wants play him aggressively)… in my opinion we need a better distribution.

My goal isn’t buff him nor nerf him nor cut off certain styles… I’m just trying to give him a more balanced distribution.


VALIANT CHARGE: Wide Charge is now active as default BUT

  • FK can not go through bosses;

  • [optional] FK can go through only 5 super-armored enemies (Chaos Warriors). The 6th will stop the Charge (but still no limits against normal-armored enemies, like Stormvermins).

Motivation: I feel that Wide Charge is essential and mandatory to FK’s style. Get stopped by one only armored guy is terrible: a simple enemy like a Stormvermin could nullify the entire FK’s duty (it can prevent me to reach a downed ally, it can protect other enemies from Charge’s stagger effect, etc etc… in highest contents there are armored enemies everywhere). For this reason I think it should be included in the “base pack”… but, as trade off, I added those malus.


NO GUTS, NO GLORY (passive): damage reduction buffed from 10% to 15%;

Motivation: the most important reason is try to compensate the new “damage reduction stacking”, wich penalizes those careers who have the damage reduction “fragmented” in different abilites (= currently, FK hasn’t anymore 25% DR since No Guts, No Glory and Protective Presence don’t add up anymore); Moreover, in general, I feel that +5% DR would help the tank role;


LEVEL 5 TALENTS:

  • Back Off, Ugly!: no changes;

  • [optional] Bloody Unstoppable: tHP on kill instead of tHP on cleave;

Motivation: I wrote “optional” because I need more tests as “aggressive FK”… but, in my opinion, tHP on kill could help who wants adopt an aggressive style… while tHP on cleave, under certain aspects, can be similar to tHP on stagger (example: if I play with 2h Hammer, I can use both tHP on stagger or on cleave).

  • Templar’s Rally: no changes;

LEVEL 10 TALENTS:

  • Staggering Force:

    • Berserkers (Monks and Savages) get staggered for a longer time >>>OR<<<

    • Chaos Warriors get staggered out their diagonal (from below to the top) swept:

Motivation: Staggering Force is useful (with shields) to stagger berserkers out of their combo… but you can reach this breakpoint also without Staggering Force (you just need, as properties, some power vs Monks or Skaven). Moreover berserkers remain staggered for a very short time… this means that they can still hit you while, after the push, you are charging the bash. I feel that Staggering Force needs something more.

  • Have a Thee!: no changes (staggering elites gives power);

  • Stagger Cooldown Decrease: this talent replaces Crowd Clearer (wich is NOT removed, it’s just on a different row);

Motivation: explained in the premise. In this row the number of aggressive talents is higher than the number of defensive talents… and, since we are talking about a tank, I find it sad. BUT, as already said, I will NOT remove any aggressive talent: Crowd Clearer is just on a different row.
Moreover “Disable Charge Reset” and “Stagger Cooldown Decrease” combo was a fun and working synergy.


LEVEL 15 TALENTS:

  • Bulwark: no changes;

  • [optional] Smiter: this talent replaces Mainstay;

Motivation: I think this could help the aggressive style… but I leave the last word to the experts of this style.

  • Enhanced Power: no changes;

LEVEL 20 TALENTS

  • Rock Of Reikland: [currently it doesn’t give the damage reduction to FK nor his allies. Bug or intended?] Anyway this talent should give both doubled aura’s size + block cost reduction + damage reduction;

  • That’s A Bloody Teamwork!: Protective Presence gives +7,5% damage reduction per near player BUT it can stack at most 2 times (the total damage reduction from this talent remains +15%);

Motivation: now that you merged Defensive Formation and That’s A Bloody Teamwork I can understand: a doubled aura, with this talent, could be too much… but, from the other side, the current size is really small and so rarely you can have even only two players inside it. The game doesn’t let this to us, it’s not an MMORPG.
I thought this change in order to reach the max damage reduction in a more reliable way… BUT, since you can stack it at most only two times, the damage reduction remains 15% (before it was 5% x 3 stacks, now 7,5% but only x 2 stacks).

  • Tag Team: no changes [I need more tests]

LEVEL 25 TALENTS:

  • Counter-Punch: free push time increased from 1 second to 1,5 seconds.

Motivation: I feel an halfway between 1 second and 2 seconds is needed.

  • It’s Hero Time: no changes;

  • Crowd Clearer: like written above, this talent replaces Stagger Cooldown Decrease

Motivation: explained in the premise. There was an “embarrassing” situation where level 10 tier had more aggressive talents than defensive ones (sad for a tank)… but, at the same time, level 25 tier had only defensive talents (sad for who wants adopt an aggressive style).


LEVEL 30 TALENTS:

  • Numb To Pain: no changes;

  • Trample: enemies hit by Valiant Charge take +20% damage for 15 seconds;

Motivation: now that Wide Charge is applied as default (but with some malus), we can have the old, cool, Trample.

Bull Of Ostaland!: no changes;


Thanks for reading.

4 Likes

Chiming in as an aggressive shield footknight. Wanted to first extrapolate on why us aggressive FKs like being FK as opposed to Merc or GK. Specifically, footknight brings a unique style of aggression that none of the other classes have. I’ve always viewed FK as the guy who specializes in being a brutal force on the front line, swinging dudes around like they’re paper, sending dudes flying through the air before finishing them off - it’s a slight exaggeration, but that’s what it feels like. Having the charge on such a low cooldown is key to his style, and what a lot of his talents - offensive or defensive - should play around. Any increases in his killing potential should therefore play off of that style. That’s why instead of getting straight power bonuses, he gains his power by staggering elites, or attacks faster after pushing trash away, or plain is able to stagger things easier (staggering force is quite fun on weapons that don’t do push attacks much agianst hordes. I like it on Greatsword). With that in mind, I’d like to give more specific feedback.

With this style, I could see an argument for temp on kill instead of cleave. Slap a big hammer in that bois hands, charge a chaos pat and just bonk-bonk-bonk away. It could be tasty. But cleave is more predictable, which is why I like that on footknight. Footknight doesn’t do much spike damage, but he is rather a consistent and predictable force on the frontline. Of course, I usually default to stagger since I’m a shield boi.

For Staggering Force, I’m not a fan of making it specific to enemy types. After all, there are plenty more enemy types to stagger like Mauler or Bestigor overheads. Further, staggering force can already do those things depending on the breakpoints used. More stagger power can leave berserkers staggered longer, or even put chaos berskerers on the ground with a second push (staggering force can do that currently on its own). What makes staggering force so good is that unlike opportunist, it affects the enemy all the time, even if they’re already staggered by something else. So further pushes or staggers will affect the enemy more. You can also do something fun and take staggering force and tag team, allowing you to skip opportunist entirely and take swift slaying for the same (sometimes better) stagger result.

I definitely wouldn’t put in smiter anywhere on Footknight. Smiter runs counter to footknights style of stagger the enemy and make them sit down and rethink their life decisions before finishing them off.

Didn’t notice rock wasn’t giving damage reduction; that has to be a bug, can’t imagine it would be deliberate. The aura is small though, I agree. Maybe increase the default size by a bit, say 50% more? Rock could still double it safely, or increase the bigger default by a smaller amount.

I don’t think counter punch needs a buff, but I’m not against it. It does it’s job well, which is help you get out of situations where you’re surrounded (provided your push has enough, well, push to, well, push things).

We’ve talked about the proposed swap of talents before, and I’m definitely still conflicted on it. I’ve thought some more about it, and while I’m not COMPLETELY against it, I don’t think it’s necessary. Right now we have a row themed around offense/stagger, and a row around survivability/utility. That feels pretty thematic to me.

Lastly, for the charge: I view the charge as being different from the other movement abilities in that Valiant Charge’s purpose is to get TO the threat quickly and knock it down. The other uses of it (escape, revive, general maneuverability) are more secondary effects: Definitely nice, but not the main point. That’s why there’s a delay before he builds momentum, but much higher stagger than any other dash ability. With all that in mind, I’m against putting that much of wide charge into the default. I would say that he should keep the mass limit of what he can charge through (even if enemies are all unarmored, he will stop if there’s enough density) but I would be fine if he didn’t stop JUST because there was one armored. Maybe give it a mass cleave with the tank modifier so he can never charge through something that’s bigger than him, but can get through at least a stormvermin or two. I like Ingrett’s suggestion in another thread too: Trample keeps the extra width and 20% extra damage to hit enemies, and numb to pain could increase the total mass or enemy types he could charge through.

2 Likes

I really disagree with this, I always use the attack speed buff rather than wide charge and I manage just fine.

Charging through elites is a nice buff for positioning, but is far from essential and I dislike the idea of adding it to the base skill. Its something you can learn to adapt to and its a good downside to the other buffs he can recieve, as it requires you to think more about your positioning, which makes it far less braindead to use compared to other “press button to win” abilities.

I agree but the issue is with ‘THP on cleave’ just being underperforming, if they buffed THP cleave to be even comparable to the other options it might be worth keeping.

This is the one i’d like to see become passive- giving FK a (smaller) stagger bonus with a new talent to further increase his stagger would work as a nice parallel to Mercs passive increased cleave with a talent to boost it. Having a minor passive boost to stagger no matter your perks would help cement FK’s identity, as all weapons would handle a bit differently with him.

Im not a fan of counter-punch as it stands, but im yet to test on Cata where it might have some use. I’d rather see a general re-work than a buff to the numbers. I find it just awkward to use.

The problem with the old valiant charge was that it didnt stack with other similar effects, so depending on ally chocies it could end up doing nothing :frowning: They would need to fix this.

4 Likes

I think you’re both a bit mad to want on kill over cleave honestly. Cleave is just more consistent, and even specced towards it, FK ain’t much of an elite killer. I get it’s kinda similar to stagger, but cleave is a better pick than kill for most of your arsenal I’d say.

Gonna tag another veteran FK to check I’m not way off base here @Ingrett

Side note, I think calling it “aggressive FK” is misleading. CC oriented FK builds play very aggressively, getting in things’ faces and using high stagger power to lock enemies down on the frontline. I think what you mean is more like “DPS FK”.

9 Likes

No idea what’s underperforming with THP on cleave. Even on Zealot it’s more consistent, unless you’re running modded and/or Cata+ with a plethora of Elites.

It was buffed not that long ago as well. Hordes are regular and allow to sustain THP reliably. You can make the 2H Hammer work with it against Elite density, and it scales very well with higher Attack Speed buffs and just fast weapons like Mace & Sword. Even 1H Sword is very good in this particular regard, if anything.

THP on kill is very situational and even then not that great without +30 healing received. Regardless of traits, it’s very well suited on careers like Shade and Grail Knight, both have ultimates that count as melee and trigger it, allowing a fast surge of health.

Footknight is not a smiter. You can make him very decent against Horde and Elites, but you will have other teammates that are strictly DPS, usually denoted by actually having Smiter in their kit. THP on Stagger is very flexible in terms of your team, you don’t have to actually kill anything, allowing THP Talent of your teammates to proc. THP on Cleave is a middleground, works with fast weapon, slower high cleaving weapons that do damage, but still doesn’t require a kill. THP on kill is a finite resource.

Footknight already struggled to gain any meaningful THP generation and relied on his green health before THP Cleave was buffed, Stagger THP was the main option and I ran it even with bladed weapons. Now I can easily top myself off from a single horde. Switching it for THP Kill, having Stagger as the only alternative, will gimp hybrid into oblivion.

8 Likes

I really like what they’ve done with FK, though I think he could perhaps stand a little bit more of a buff. A little extra power from his power boosting talents or a little more defense for his defensive boosting talents and he’d be in a perfect spot. I’ve said it before and i’ve got no clue if it’s me being stupid or if it’s a good idea, but I also think they should replace his passive stamina boost with a passive stagger boost. A passive stagger boost would mesh very well with his talents, with the extra stagger talent + passive stagger boost giving him close to opportunist level stagger without needing opportunist, and innate stagger bonus would mesh well with Have At Thee for more power on staggering elites.

2 Likes

THP on cleave is way more reliable than THP on kill.
But would feel a bit redundant with THP on stagger.

Its possible the buff went over my head and im holding a grudge against the talent from past experience! I think the reason i’d like to see cleave replaced is that it doesnt really function all that differently to stagger.

I guess I kinda hate how the THP works overall, the talents arbitrarily restrict builds per career and create weird gameplay situations like not wanting to kill an elite as a ‘cleaver’ so the ‘smiters’ can get their health back. (not to mention how healshare is frustrating when combined with books, as only one person should have it in the party, and if the team makes them take a book they just took a hard nerf)

Unfortunately im in the minority that wants to see attrition be the primary difficulty in the game over spikes of damage. My ideal state of the game would see THP be far more about short term protection, and be significantly harder to actually get in the first place, this would need a total reballance- where damage overall is slightly lower, but also healing is far far rarer- this would make every hit matter, you cant just say “whoops” and instantly generate that hp back again.

Sorry for the tangent!

Arguement for the state of THP Talents and arguement for the selection of THP Talents on a particular career are two different things, currently we’re discussing the latter. One thing at a time.

THP Stagger and THP Cleave are not that different, but still different and function better with different weapons, both adequate. THP Kill is very different and not for the better in this case.

In the meantime, is the system perfect? Absolutely not. Is it better than it was on launch? Absolutely yes. Without going too deep, I’d go for a mode without THP altogether, won’t go as far as to implement it into Cataclysm as to not rattle bones, but a weekly for a spin would do.

There are a lot of things that can be done about a lot of different game aspects, but Fatshark kindly let us know that they’re taking it one chunk at a time, so I don’t expect any changes outside of what they’ve already touched upon.

4 Likes

I’ve said the same myself! Mostly just because it irks me a power stacking Merc has more stagger power than a FK without Staggering Force. The precise number would need to be carefully tuned though, so it’s not too easy to hit all relevant stagger breakpoints. I’d be thinking around 10-15%.

3 Likes

Whatever specific number it should be, it needs to result in slightly more stagger power for FK with Have At Thee than a Mercenary with MtM and Reikland Reaper.

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I agree

I think it should be a 3 seconds.

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Want to start off by explaining that apart from the temp HP change, I am not against any of the ideas you’ve proposed, and am just posting my ideas here. Well written and comprehensive list of changes by the way, good stuff. As for my ideas/critiques:

Making Wide Charge a base part: Valiant Charge never needed extra width, only the ability to go through more than one armoured enemy. Make it stop at 5 or 6 armoured enemies. Either keep wide charge or possibly replace with 20% extra power for 15 seconds against affected enemies.

Extra damage reduction: Sure, an extra 5% still won’t put it anywhere near IB level tankiness so no problem here

Bloody Unstoppable: Rather have the HP on cleave. Works well with just about every weapon he has

Staggering Force: What about 50% extra stagger power but you lose 5-10% attack speed. Either take SS to compensate or double down and go opportunist as well.

OR

Each stack of stagger increases stagger power against that enemy by 25%? Would that stop overheads or would this be completely useless? Im honestly not sure

Rock of the Reikland: If you give it damage reduction in addition to everything else, why would you take Now that’s teamwork. You’d then be deciding between an extra 10% damage reduction (more like 8 or 9) or 20% BCR and double range.

As for the aura radius, I’d just ask for them to increase it by 25% base. Though that might make Rock a little useless or perhaps too easy to use.

Counter Punch: Just make the next push free? I mean that’s the whole point of it and there wouldn’t need to be any more balancing beyond that.

I think that’s objectively worse than the current iteration, since you can currently get 2 free pushes out from it. 1.5/2 seconds would be fine.

4 Likes

Oh in that case just revert to 2 seconds or add some extra modifier like extra power or crit chance for the next attack. Considering how much better Hero Time and Bloody Teamwork are now, counter punch definitely needs more than 0.5 seconds extra

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That would certainly be fitting for the talent name! How about Push/Block radius or something similar that would go well with the free pushes?

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Is there such a thing as increased stagger for pushes? Otherwise push/block radius would work well. That way all 3 of the talents on that tier would grant a defensive bonus to the whole party

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For some weapons counter punch is still very attractive. Particularly the new M&S. My favorite FK builds (those involving shields) use counter punch.

How about this for Counter-Punch:

  • Blocking an attack removes the stamina cost for all pushes within 4 seconds. This is limited to 2 pushes for two handed weapons, and 3 pushes for 1h weapons.

That way, non-attack speed builds aren’t punished for being too slow, and it encourages the player to use them strategically rather than throwing a ton of pushes out at once.

2 Likes
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