[BIG BALANCE PATCH] Sienna

This topic is aimed at providing feedback for a possible Big Balance Patch.

Please when providing feedback, provide the career on which you provide feedback or the weapons in their full name (XSword is certainly Shorter than Executioner Sword, but it’s for clarity purpose).

Also try to keep your arguments shorts and to the point.
For example :

I do think Unchained lacks a specific role :

  • She have no means of control, therefore she’s not a real tank.
  • She lacks …

Other topics arounds thoses “Big Balance Patch” :
Topic for Kruber is here.
Topic for Bardin is here.
Topic for Kerrilian is here.
Topic for Saltzpyre is here.

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So for

Unchained :

  • She does indeed lack control to make a “useful” tank.
  • She’s the last Sienna’s career in terms of melee damage. Pyromancer have a great “squishy” melee build with great damage, and Battle Wizard can ignite and earn attack speed in melee.
  • She have a very bad ult in terms of utility (it serves her as an emergency button). It lacks damage, it lacks stagger, it lacks everything.
  • But the talent that kinda make her ult gives “temp hp” is actually a good idea. Overshadowing the rest.

Sorry but would it really be a good idea to discuss all the sienna careers in 1 thread?

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As long as you keep things organized, yes. Which is why I precised each career before speaking of a specific things.
Weapons concerns all sienna, and doing 16 different threads would take too much resources.

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This is simply not correct. Fuel to the Fire is at least competitve if not superior to Bomb Balm. And her active skill can reach enough stagger to stop a Chaos Warrior overhead attack on Cataclysm. And the damage can easily burn Skaven Slaves and Ungors to death while lowering the hitpoints of the rest enough to be in 1-hit territory.

Unchained has a melee talent with unlimited cleave in a cone up to 270 ° far higher then whatever Firesword can reach.

There is not a single tank with as much dr as her and noone is a stable against occasional chip damage. She has a weakness against Gunners and Warpfire Throwers but that’s it. Therefore, she actually preserves better against disablers then every other class. If there is a time window of 2-3 seconds between two hits she will not overcharge. There is zero need to touch her overcharge management and capacity.

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Unchained :

Doesn’t really make up for overshadowing what attack speed and crit does bring though.

Ah yeah, I agree, she does tank damage (that’s kinda her thing). Even if she have 2 “health gauges” instead of one.
But soaking damage does not provide control.
I don’t see how she preserves better against disablers than every other class, bardin have a “free” save each time is passive is up, which actually stagger around him and mostly free him against a lot of disabler (including leeches if he was close enough).

DPS-wise she does make up for the attack speed. As for the crit, I would need more testing how large the difference is. But honestly, Pyromancer is a ranged career (more than the other Sienna careers) and as such her crit bonus should simply NOT apply to melee attacks. It doesn’t make sense thematically. No career should have the possibility to get a crit chance of 50 % or higher for melee attacks. If I had to make a decision crit chance should be capped at 20 % anyway, different story though.

Not sure what you mean with Control here. She is near unkillable and can gear her equipment towards crowd control. She can regulate her overcharge by blocking, venting or just waiting.

Hm, I forgot Gromril’s Curse. Yea, Bardin fares better, that is right. As for the rest, Sienna has 50 % damage reduction. The damage reduction is still active while being disabled or downed as far as I know. However, the overcharge is deactivated which means “free” 50 % damage reduction while being disabled.

Not sure how useful my opinion will be, but if Unchained got any buffs to her ult, I think it would require Bomb Balm to be nerfed.

I do recall there being discussions that Bomb Balm would be too good with a Mercenary in the group. It didn’t really happen that way since the only Unchained main in the world is Adelion.

Personally would restrict Bomb Balm to herself (assuming any buffs to cooldown or power happened).

Kinda agreeing with Mattie, there’s a lot to talk about when it comes to Sienna. 3 careers + weapons for this 1 thread might be a stretch.

I’ll chip in though, the devs need to revisit Unchained.

One problem is Blood Magic, believe as of right now Blood Magic comes before any other damage reduction sources.
For example:
100 damaging hit splits into 2
50 to Overcharge (40 overcharge max, stops at the end of the bar)
The remainder goes through damage reduction sources e.g her talent Enfeebling Flames would reduce that to 35 damage.

Talents like Enfeebling Flames and Numb to Pain are less valuable than they could be because of the way her damage reduction formula works. She’s more likely to die from overheating than HP loss.
(Sorry if I explained that horribly, I’m sure someone else can explain it a little better)


I personally don’t see her as a tank, I think she could potentially be Sienna’s melee brawler class and I imagine that’s what they was originally going for.

Unfortunately a crit pyro does pretty comparable melee DPS without the risk of blowing up.
A famished-flames firesword BW also does comparable DPS, with more CC and safer/no risk of blowing up.


Talents:

Most of her talents need a revisit, but some stand out.

Searing Grasp
Chain Reaction (No damage, just poor CC)
Burning Dregs (Good concept, if it only procced when overheating, it would be much more usable)
Flame Wave (A talent that improves/changes her ult might be appealing)
Bomb Balm (I don’t think Unchained should restore thp to allies)
Fuel for fire (Trading 60% melee power for 25% melee/ranged power. An attack speed increase + freezing incoming overcharge for 10 seconds would be a good alternative)


Unchained gives off the illusion as being tanky and yes she can tank huge damage numbers but she is incredibly fragile to consecutive hits and tick damage.
While she does deal a large amount of melee damage, her DPS isn’t that far ahead of a famished fire sword BW or an attack speed/crit pyro yet she is much more risky to play.

There are some great Unchained players though, I’ve seen @Haiken do incredibly well. Hopefully he can chip in too.

unchained:

I’ve always thought what if unchained could be like this:

Remove the ‘taking hits increases overcharge’.
Can only blow up if overcharged but purely by your doing

Dual wield weapons > every time you hit enemies, you gain overcharge, which ramps up dmg and speed to a certain % > has to vent manually to reduce overheat > can still use range but you overheat faster (to discourage ranged use).

Has more offensive ult talents, remove all her defensive ones ( something that has to do with her overcharge bar).

I don’t know, there are probably and most likely tons of things i didnt think about; but this is how i would like unchained. like james said i don’t see her as a tank and the temp hp on ult is a weird talent, most unchained players save their ult for when they take to much hits and stay at max stacks when they have ult available, which equals a panic button. (the reason might be the dmg reduction not applying to dmg going into overcharge.)

Edit: she is ‘tanky’ but it depends on how you look at it. I like never ever died by having my hp reach 0 on unchained, always to overheating, and the fact that dmg reductions don’t apply to heat is even worse, and that’s what makes her less tanky, as she can die very quickly and cannot tank alot of damage, unless holding vent and just facetanking everything, maybe.

Don’t you dare to take away her strongest active skill Talent and replace it with some bs like attack Speed. Fuel to the Fire is so much more than just “trading” 60 % melee damage versus 25 % power.

First off it is damage versus power. As such Fuel to the Fire influences all - melee, dot and range. It is a real pinch saver if you are cornered by a Horde or just a nuke option if you want to be pro-active. It is the only talent where not all of your melee damage is lost. Most important, Fuel to the Fire strengthens the active skill itself. This means your active skill have up to 25 % higher damage (enough to burn Ungors and Slave Rats and to bring most other horde enemies into 1-hit territory) and 25 % more stagger (with specializing enough to stop Chaos Warriors overhead attack). As it strengthens the DoT it also has synergy with Searing Grasp.

Searing Grasp itself outdamages Frenzied Flame (this may be weapon dependent though).
Enfeebling Flames is a talent which helps the whole group, not just Unchained which makes it far more valuable as the other talents.

There is only one Talent which I can’t imagine a good use for which I would replace. For three I would Need some tweaking. The rest can stay identical to what it is now.

Blood Magic is also not a problem as there is a giant buffer as long as you are 5-10 % under max overcharge (meaning about 3 seconds of not getting hit). Here literal only real weakness is consecutive damage in short succession, mainly Gunners and Warpfire Throwers.

But yea, one thread for all careers is to much. I wanted to wait a bit but I think I will do the Unchained thread this evening. People don’t play her very much.

Unchained’s problem is she’s too much risk for too little reward

-She has extremely little effective health compared to any other tank
-Does less damage than other melee options
-Does less damage than other ranged options

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Honestly, @Adelion’s various unchained posts on the forums have done a pretty good job of convincing me she’s mostly fine. I do think it’s silly that DR like from barkskin applies after blood magic. Besides being extremely unintuitive for newer players, it kinda just makes all external forms of DR way less effective on her. I could see some problems with her overatacking DR otherwise, but Barkskin at very least should apply before blood magic. This would also serve to somewhat decrease her skill floor, which might help her be played more often.

I personally think Bomb Balm is her strongest ult talent.
Fuel for Fire helps minimizes the damage loss from venting overcharge damage but I’d much prefer a talent that improves her melee DPS even further.

My suggestion being a talent that increases attack speed and freezes overcharge (instead of venting) for 10 seconds after living bomb.
You keep the 60% melee damage, gain attack speed and reduce the risk of blowing up.
And a separate talent that would most likely replace Flame Wave directly buffs the ult e.g more damage, larger radius, increased stagger, increased dot duration etc

Best of both worlds, one talent for melee DPS and one talent for a more effective ult.
If you simply want to play more ranged heavy play one of the other careers, this way Unchained has her own identity.


Searing Grasp is indeed weapon dependent.
A single target weapon like crowbill would probably perform better with Searing Grasp than Frenzied Flame
Where as a weapon like firesword probably benefits more from Frenzied Flame as the weapon already has a powerful dot on the heavies.
Dagger consumes less stamina per push but has a limited push angle so it’s up for debate.

I also want to point out Searing Grasp can’t stack on its self, the first dot has to finish before another dot reapplies. Searing Grasp also doesn’t benefit from overcharge melee damage.
So unless you’re hitting a ridiculously large amount of enemies with 1 push you’ll be doing less DPS than Frenzied Flame. It really relies on heavy density, it’s too niche.


I didn’t say Enfeebling Flames and Numb to Pain are bad, I just said they’re less valuable to Unchained than what they could be because of the Blood Magic damage reduction formula and yeah I’m aware of the overheat buffer, it can be abused heavily on bolt staff BW.

Dots and tick damage are potentially the most dangerous sources of damage in the game, hence why Barkskin is widely accepted as one of the best necklace traits in the game. Unchained is tanky against everything but those things, she gives the illusion of being tanky but she effectively only has 40HP (40 overcharge).
It’s just the buffer stopping her from dying 9 times out of 10. If damage reduction came before Blood Magic then maybe she’d fair better off against the real threats.

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I personally think UC is in a good spot. Some minor tweaks could however be beneficial.

My go-to weapons are flail + beam. With repeated use of the flail’s first heavy attack, UC can perma-stagger groups of everything (except CW). Very useful when holed up somewhere, or when playing Vanguard or Twins.

With Beam Staff, is really easy to raise overcharge with the shotgun blast. The beam itself is accurate even when actively taking damage, and is great at taking care of flamers and gunners targeting you.

Through careful overcharge management, UC can be almost indestructible, while at the same time be able to dish out decent damage. As long as you don’t blow up, UC can easily go through an entire mission without using a single healing item, thanks to DMG reduction and THP. When the overcharge bar is full because you got hit, you can push, dodge once and vent at the same time and then continue fighting.

Getting overcharge from being hit is an interesting aspect of UC, that adds to her uniqueness. If we were to remove this, we would have to reduce her damage reduction and change a lot of other things about her. Being able to raise overcharge by getting hit can also be useful, like when using certain ranged weapons that are slow at raising overcharge, or when you don’t have time to bring out your ranged weapon. Her damage reduction and THP on hit makes it easy to recover from such hits.

The ultimate being a panic button is a bit annoying, as it means I’ll save my ultimate until an emergency. Sometimes there are no emergencies, and suddenly I am at the end of the map, having not used the ult even once. But as long as it can save me from being downed if I mess up, then I’ll keep using it sparingly. What they could do is change Burning Dregs a bit and add it as a Passive instead of a Talent. Something similar to Zealot’s Heart of Iron. That would free up the ultimate a bit.

Unlike Pyro and BW, UC supports a more reckless playing style because of her tankiness. She handles chip damage very well, can out-vent gunner-fire and gas, and has her panic button. One thing I would like removed is overcharge from FF. Especially from bombs. Looking at you @James, you RV-player.

When it comes to talents, UC has several that could use some change.

Chain Reaction gives some extra, unreliable CC, at the cost of ATK speed or push+ignite. It is clearly not worth it.

Numb to Pain gives 5-15% extra DMG reduction, but only a short while after venting. Considering how damage reduction is calculated for UC, it is pretty useless. You could instead choose Conduit, which increases your survivability by a lot.

Dissipate seems counter-intuitive to me, as a UC should be staying at high overcharge. Dissipate actively makes this more difficult. It might increase survivability by a lot, but the cost to your DPS is too great.

Burning Dregs can be an additional safety net, but I find that it is unreliable and not needed because you have your ultimate. Since it activates depending on your HP and not your overcharge, it is often more damaging than helpful. Not only did you take a hit that sent you below 50% HP, you also lost all your Unstable Strength stacks.

Flame Wave is just inferior to the alternatives. You apply dot and weak stagger to a few more enemies, instead of healing your party or getting more stagger and DMG from your ult.

One last thing. CWs always gets past the overcharge’s safety net with their underhand swing when they hit you. It makes CWs much more dangerous to UC compared to any other class. Fixing this would make a big difference for UC.

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I find pyro with temp hp talent to be a more reckless + tanky playstyle. The temp hp ult saves me in so many situations sometimes. Uc does have more tankiness when venting while taking damage tho.

The issue i find with unchained is that when a gunner or flamer is on you, venting isn’t an issue, it’s trying to kill it + not blowing up. It’s doable sure, it’s just alot of effort, very high skill ceiling career. i’d rather minmax my overheat with on the precipe talent on pyro trough the entire map while getting way more damage. Uc just doesn’t feel worth the effort to me. I do agree that she is a very high skill ceiling career and can be played optimally, just not worth it imo.

Also yes FF is annoying on uc, alot more than on other careers.

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important thing to keep in mind is that BW with soot shield is far more durable than Unchained

and melee pyro has significantly higher melee AND ranged dps than Unchained

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I will admit that you at least tested her properly. There are some informations which are important and not known to many people.

For example Searing Grasp is indeed not stackable with itself but I can understand why because otherwise you could just push 4-5 times in a horde and eradicate everything.

I thought about this. I don’t think it is necessary. But I also think it wouldn’t make a difference. At what overcharge level can you play Unchained effectively? 75 - 80 %? This means you have an overcharge of about 10 points left. Now we assume a damage reduction of 60 % (50 % + some kind of bonus by FK or properties for example).

=> 10/(1-0.6) = 25

For any attack doing more or equal to 25 damage there would be no difference. So on Cataclysm this would effectively be … Ungors? Well, and to be fair chip damage by Gunners/WFT.

Will still make my thread to show my vision for Unchained. Feel free to rip my ideas there.

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I can’t really see 35 THP whenever you ult as Pyromancer allow for the same kind of recklessness as the permanent 60 extra HP, the passive 50% DMG reduction and the 30 THP on ult UC has. Especially if you have the talent “Conduit” as UC, which makes venting extremely effective.

I don’t have much problem dealing with gunners and flamers on me as UC, perhaps it is because of my build? Beam Staff has the best accuracy for dealing with such a situation. It also helps if you are using the talent “Natural Talent” and the trait “Thermal Equalizer”, as you will be able to get more shots in when on high overcharge. Natural Talent also reduces the amount of overcharge you get when damaged.

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Yea i know she is more tanky, but i can play more recklessly with pyro.

I’m not having issues either killing them when i have a team around me and the gunner is far away. But in less ideal situations where a gunner sneaks up behind you, your team is gone, he is just out of melee range. it’s just a waiting game, where you hold vent and tank.

The real UC threats are gunners and WFT, thats the only damage i feel can make uc blow up, the fact that it wouldnt really make a difference on elites attackes or others would make it even better balance wise.

Nobody takes barkskin for eating overheads, its a bit the same

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