[BIG BALANCE PATCH] Saltzpyre

Skarrik in general is a joke, that’s not a BH-related problem. Double-shotted still is (unfortunately) overpowering everything on that tier. Reducing it at 25-30% per bullet is a start, but the overall problem is that there’s no point in wasting skill with double\triple the cooldown of BW\FK skill on hordes.

You’re not entirely wrong except the Rapiers full charge takes more time to do.

Axe/Falch also has a Charged Attack, BUT its a double headshot that when combined with Deathknell is much faster. That’s what I mean when I say Double Headshot. Ergo why its so nasty on CWs.

Only had a little chance to try Salt last night. First impression, Falchion feels great, doesn’t overpower the rest of his arsenal. Flail and Greatsword I want to test more, both games I used them as Witch Hunter Captain and my thoughts are Oh My Lort!

Now, WHC is strong by default, and the RV on team was running pass the ale, and we also had a Grail Knight not really testing anything, so those might have contributed, but wow. 30% damage buff to flail’s heavies might be too much. I felt like I had 2h hammer on a chain. Even with WHC’s flense and crit boost, I don’t recall topping kills and damage with flail ever being an easy thing (in fact, on Zealot, topping with flail is a toss-up dependent on Slayers or Shades playing badly. Even Merc can keep up). Might be a strong case to lower the buff to heavies. Still need to run it more and compare if it truly overwhelms the rest of his arsenal.

Greatsword I’ve got the same criticism for it that I had during the mod. Lights are too fast, makes the weapon arcade like to use. To parrot other users like Rebel and Velsix from different threads, I think the greatsword needed a stab in its light move set more than speed. The weapon shouldn’t do enough armor damage to compete with other great weapons, only just enough to get by without taking away its CC identity. It also fits that a great weapon does some armor pen, the damage on push-attack is reasonable, a stab move should be that level of power. As far as attack speed on lights, I don’t know if it really needs more than 5%-7% boost. If this weapon feels too fast on Witch Hunter Captain, then it’s got to feel broken fast on Mercenary and Zealot.

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Weapon:

  • Falchion: preferably getting cleave buff. Currently worse than rapier in every way possible.
  • Axe: was hoping for crit buff to make up for slower speed. The rapier already has fast swing, cleave and high headshot damage so axe just feel inferior most of the time.
  • Flail: weird buff but ok I’ll take it.
  • Billhook: fair game. The stagger of special attack can already kill most of the threats.
  • Axe/Falchion: weird nerf that’s totally uncalled for, but should not affect pick rate that much.

Range:

  • Volley Crossbow: welcomed buff.
  • Repeater Pistol: still a meme.

Talent:

  • Bounty Hunting: RNG at its finest. Can be absolutely useless or broken depend on how it picks target.
  • Melee kill reload: my favorite kill confirm tracker because that’s the only thing it does. Reload 1 bullet is useless most of the time because the weapon use it already have short reload from passive and the weapon needs it might as well reload themselves. Currently only viable on BoP.
  • Weapon Swap: decent to use on BoP, limited usage on Volley Crossbow and Pistol. Hard to use effectively if you want to save guaranteed crit for high threat elite/special.
  • Rest of the talent change: So useless not sure why they are even there.

Rather then a nerf I’d much rather see a change. Zealot is supposed to have some sort of risk for getting that big buff. The biggest risk so far is having the misfortune of being in the same game as a Waystalker using Rejuvenating Locus or a Grail Knight with the hp regen duty, making you have a miserable 20 minutes if you don’t leave the game, what is simply the easiest option.
There’re multiple ways of giving him a more risky playstyle, I’d personally love something like a reverse Curse of Tainted Blood, so you gradually lose max hp the longer you stay out of combat. I feel like this would perfectly fit his lore and playstyle and gives FS something to work around.

First off: I’ll take it that you get the number 80 since he got 180 hp, but that’s 150 base hp, 30 of that is the 20% extra hp you always take (since it’s even needed to get 6 stacks). Taking 80 max hp would leave him at 70 (or 84 with the extra 20%), what would be just weird. That just makes everything weird and complicated for no reason. One of the reasons Zealot is so strong (but is also very characteristic) is his good defense, as he is one of the very few careers you won’t die from an overhead even on Cataclysm (150 dmg), as long as you got pretty much full hp. A max hp of 84 doesn’t have any purpose other then to excuse the fact that he gets 30% hero power. Don’t get me wrong, I like the way how op he is right now and I’d also be very fine with a change to his playstyle that makes it an actual risk-reward thing instead instead. Reducing his max hp is not the way to go though. If anything, they could change something with his temp hp. That would all depend of how FS would implement that then.
(My personal favorite possible change would still be the reverse Curse of Tainted Blood I’ve mentioned abive.)

First off: I’m pretty much a Zealot A&F OTP at this point so I believe I know what I’m talking about. (But I only read about this testing balance patch today so I didn’t have time to actually test anything so far.)
I see where they’re coming from, but I’m not sure if the nerf is too much for high difficulties. A&F is a bit of a weird weapon if you look into it. For people who don’t mind everything that much, it’s a good easy weapon to pick up, since blindly flailing at the enemy can do the job for everything up to legend. Light spam for the horde, heavy spam for the bigger boys. Even just light spamming could probably get you decently far. That’s because A&F kind of does everything, but nothing that well if not placed into the right hands.

  • Light 1 is with the axe for no cleave, but good single target/armor dmg.
  • Light 2 and 3 are your cleave attacks, that do barely any dmg to armor.
  • Light 4 is the overhead with the axe that does what the first light does, but even better.
  • Heavy 1 and 2 are basically the same and deal a good chunk of armor dmg.
  • After heavy 2 comes the quick and powerfull light 4 for just a little more DPS.

Aren’t we forgetting one thing here? Oh right? Literally the strongest and most important part of the whole weapon. At least that’s what the push attack used to be.

  • Your push attack opens up your cleave combo with push - push attack - light 2 - light 3 - repeat until out of stamina.

Now to what got removed:

  • Your push attack had the linesman modifier, that increased stagger, what really helped controling the horde when you got run down or had to charge into way too many enemies to give your team some space.
  • Your push attack also had 20% extra crit chance to help starting off your cleave combo with SS and sustain SS overall (Heavy 1 - Heavy 2 - Light 4 isn’t fast enough to sustain it on its own). The aditional crits obviously also provided more clear and stagger on their own and were expecially usefull, since theyr stagger is strong enough for most elites (like plague monks).

But while this one attack is certainly completely overloaded, is is needed to keep up with the Billhook, that barely got touched. I’m guessing A&F gets nerfed because of a high pick rate more then anything. Though I’d bet at least 50% of regular Saltzpyre legend players always heavily underestimated how strong it is. At least up until now where everyone talkes about it because of the nerfs.
This makes A&F just go into spot where many regular players use it still as often as before, since if you don’t minmax to some extend, you’ll barely realise the changes. But those you did play countless hours of A&F now might have to drop and switch to another weapon, because I already see that these changes will hurt a lot on cata/high level weaves. With the punishment growing the better you are at the weapon, it decreases the weapons playrate on the completely wrong end.

2 Likes

Weight of fire makes sense with a salvo x bow against bosses. Which is kind of half the weapons job. The other half is thinning a horde, since its not too good vs specials or armor w.o. the crit passive.

It’s rare to see someone else that doesn’t just think the Axe & Falchion is a braindead weapon.
It’s a shame the Billhook was barely nerfed. Too many have yet to realise how much damage and how fast that abomination actually is.

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So, you knew exactly what I meant, which was a suggestion to make him a base 100 HP class, but still made a huge response about a thing I didn’t ask for?

I am for giving Zealot squish HP and making his stacks percentage based instead of a hard number (which you noted he needs the 20% hp boost in order to receive 6 stacks). Zealot has a solid defense, which is mostly fine. A reasonable hit to his THP talent is needed to make a DR talent or move speed talent competitive. The lower HP is specifically to make Zealots play a little smarter but also speed up the game since I actually hate how long it takes to bleed health on purpose. At 100 hp, a Skaven slave can teleport out of the warp behind me to stab me in the back without a sound (as is tradition in this game), and suddenly I’m at max or almost max efficiency. No more will Zealots bee line towards elites and cry while waiting for the elite to engage in an overhead, no more crying in the chat when team deletes said elite and everything alive within two miles in under a minute, no more trying to find new and inventive ways to damage their health, no more rage in the chats about the team not helping while begging the dwarf to shotgun you to near death. You just get up and move because by Cata everything hurts enough at base 100 hp. And after Zealot get their HP down, they should be expected to play smarter, they have a passive specifically to survive dying. It’s appropriate for a Zealot player with the power of Sigmar to be punished if they play too sloppy.

Bonus opinion no one asked for: change Castigate so: On damage have 15% attacks speed boost for 15 seconds (can be triggered by friendly fire). That’ll make this talent more active and less dependent on Stacks.

That’s what I thought. I understand why people use A&F so much but they fail to understand how broken the damage and hook stagger of the billhook that can stagger CW and stormvermin for easy kill.

Rather than A&F nerf I’d rather see other weapon gaining their unique identities instead.

2 Likes

The billhook nerf was a pretty large one (99 dodges down to 3 is a big hit) but I think the damage output isn’t inherently the issue with it

Alt-fire is way too spammable and safe to do imo and that gives it a lot of room to do free damage to elites without much risk

Edit: maybe adding a stamina cost back to the alt-fire like it had in WoM beta would be the most elegant solution?

2 Likes

Debatable: I mean you could change from 99 to 50 which is huge and yet you wouldn’t feel impact. Also, I never understood the importance of these dodge counters. I mean the dodge range just diminishes with further dodges, right? It is not that you are unable to dodge. For all I know, I could play with Shield&Axe and never had much trouble to keep dodging attacks unless I needed to kite for a prolonged time.

Wouldnt call it elegant but it would help. A stamina cost would remove the spammability. Cooldown would work too, but is very clunky.

Running out of effective dodges has a massive impact, you can still “dodge” in the technical sense but you won’t avoid any hits that you wouldn’t otherwise be able to walk away from. So yes, having only 3 effective dodges as opposed to infinite dodges is a sizable nerf

it’s why Axe & Falchion having its dodges nerfed from 6 to 3 was pretty big

99-50 wouldn’t matter because you’ll never go through all 50 dodges, going through 3 is very realistic.

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Anything above 2 feels good to me -_- But this has then to be a matter of playstyle as I seem togo more for Opportunist and pushing than other players.

But that gives room for another trait actually: Increase effective dodge counter by 2. Hm, I think there is finally some room for more good not-dps centered traits.

2 Likes

Honestly few people even use it, even when I’m on other characters and watching other WHCs. I seem to be one of the few who does.

A lot of that has to do with the fact you need a gaming mouse and need to reassign a side button or its hard to use. Most people don’t even know you have an Alt-Fire.

Secondly its too slow of a reset to do any real damage . But it is something you can do when you have a horde of monks/zerks on you. You can try to get headshots on them and take them out slowly but safely one at a time. But again its a slow process.

Its great in a combination like on Shield Users or a Mauler where you can do a shot-slash-shot, but just using the pistol shot purely to take something down takes a long time, due to the long reset on it and low relative damage. You just don’t wrack up a ton of kills that way.

Ergo… why you are the first person ever even to bring it up.

I’m talking about billhook?

Oh sorry heh you only said Alt-Fire I assumed Rapier.

I used the new Falchion a lot the other day. They definitely took it a step in the right direction with the stronger anti-armor attacks, however it’s still a touch on the slow side compared to AnF or even Kruber/Sienna 1h sword. There’s a particular issue after a push attack especially, where there is a longer than usual delay before you can chain a light attack compared to most or all other weapons.

For sure, I recommend reducing the delay after a push attack so that the Falchion flows better. Beyond that, a small attack speed buff could be in order.

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Jumping resets dodge count anyway which you can just do at the end of a dodge so kind of irrelevant.

that’s still time where you’re not dodging and also leaves you vulnerable to disables, overheads etc.

when you aren’t under pressure, sure, it’s not a big deal.

It’s monster damage is a bit overtuned, the heavy stab is too fast, the heavy stab and light stab block/qq cancel too well, the special is insulting to other stagger weapons and it just deals with hordes very well without sacrificing the single target damage of a lower cleave weapon like the Rapier, while having great movement tech, and better headshot angles than almost any weapon (with the exception of standouts like the Dual Daggers and Exec) that reliably allow for multiple headshots in one swing. On top of these things it actually has access to better bodyshot damage than Rapier.

Edit: I may just be salty that it’s replaced the Rapier as Saltzpyre’s skill based weapon in the meta.

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