Dumb brain elf mains. /thread Hagbane:
It’s hard to say how to change this. Maybe making it more CC, so it’s similar to Conflag could work (also making it add a slow could be good too, similar to TW:WH Hag)? In which case making the actual projectile arrow apply heavy single target damage could still keep it good against Specials/Bosses.
Attacking the amount of ammo will just hurt the feeling of the Weapon.
While it feels better, the Charged 2 being the War Pick attack, feels kind of weird with a Sword, because of low Cleave. The lights into Charged combo I’m used to also doesn’t work with it now.
I can’t place it, but sometimes the Light Attacks can feel slightly weird. Especially when the L3 (poke) triggers really quickly. I’m not sure if it’s even something that should be changed or if anyone else has any ideas, but I’m just mentioning it.
You buffed my favourite Elf Weapon. It feels great, and the way it’s done really fits the identity of Elf. Maybe 10% Crit would be enough though, since she already gets Crit% from the Push-Attack.
Still slow for my personal liking, but it’s definitely better, and now way more viable to use on Shade.
Feels like it’s in a better place for sure. Combos well with WS and Shade builds, as well as being even more of a killing machine on HM.
Moving while attacking still feels quite slow for a 1H.
It’s back. One SV doesn’t counter me.
Spear and Shield:
Added a nice Horde combo. Charged > Light > Light, feels good.
Doubling down on their strength instead of making them more versatile is a good way to go about it.
The Crit going is a bit of a shame for the feel of the weapon, but it was overly versatile.
Feel like it’s being punished for SnD’s crimes. It’s already repetitive strain injury inducing vs Hordes, even with the Crit.
Would like to see some Crit% on the Charged and maybe more bleed on the lights to make up for the lack of instant damage.
The problem with this Weapon is Ammo. You fire 3 shots per burst, so you need to headshot with all 3 or the first one needs to Crit.
The ADS also feels a little clunky to me.
Extremely strong and I’d say broken on WS. Please don’t leave us with two Hagbanes.
I didn’t feel like it needed changes, but I guess other people did. In my mind it was almost capable of competing with Hag on damage already.
The projectile speed of the full auto makes it a bit awkward for chasing moving Gutter Runners. I keep getting the Mordhau ranged effect, where I’m just hoping shots will land over a distance.
I’d say make the Ultimate give inherent ammo back, at a reduced rate or dependent on the Ultimate (Piercing Shot skill=more ammo).
Remove the 20% CDR Talent and either buff her CDR by 10% passively, so you can make that row more interesting.
She’s slowly becoming my main from WS, because she has more build variation.
The Cleave Ultimate is now my only problem with HM if any at all. Making it require going over someone completely mitigates the effect, because you then have to reposition, do a 180 spin, because of the sensitivity slow during the Ult, fight a Horde who have all just turned to hit you, because you’re the closest enemy, and by then, the other DPS have cleared all of it anyway.
Please make it an inherent part of using the Ultimate, or make it a stacking buff from hitting after using the Ultimate.
The Stamina buff to Glaive, Armour buff to Spear, and Crit% buff to 2H Sword all helped 2H on Shade a little. She still struggles for Talents to bounce off of them though.
Also the Bleed Talent only benefits DD and SnD, which also both benefit from Crit Power and the headshot Talent more. It doesn’t make much sense having such a specified Talent, which is also worse than the alternatives. (unless there’s a WHC with Flense I guess, but that’s very specific)
THE POSTS AFTER THIS ONE DOWN TO @Froh 's NEXT POST WERE WRITTEN BEFORE BEING ABLE TO SEE THE BETA CHANGES
I agree. I do think this would result in almost every build being Assassin with the occasional Smiter, but that’s more of an indictment of how the other stagger talents work in my opinion. Freedom is better here.
200% agree. It’s actually insane how powerful the headshot dual wield builds are. It surprises me that’s it’s not the meta.
I’d also make Handmaiden’s passive dodge distance give an extra dodge, or give an extra dodge to the Spear. Maybe dodge speed could fit in somewhere, like as a replacement for Asrai Grace (not a great solution because it doesn’t match the Row’s offense theme).
I agree with pretty much all of this but i will name a few points i find debatable, such as one where i actually find that piercing shot and fervent huntress are pretty good actually.
Different, but good and especially so together due to how piercing shot refunds its own cooldown on a headshot meaning any longbow veteran can get a great deal of use from it without any issue and thus can safely skip the 20% cdr.
A high population of CW´s or stormvermin also means you can keep huntress up constantly which is rarely a bad thing…bonus points to piercing shot for being able to absolutely wreck stormfiends and trolls and sneak in a few heavy hits on ogre´s at times.
As for handmaiden, her ult with bladedancer does do a fair bit of damage i think? At least on legend it does enough to wipe any number of non elites with just some extra power.
Is this really a good idea? Can it actually be done without just hard nerfing the DW into the ground?
And well finally for two points i absolutely agree with, ricochet being horrible and spear having usage issue´s due to being so clunky.
Edit: I just realised that I repeated myself a lot from my initial post. Sorry. Ignore most of this.
Yeah, they can. It’s one of those where if you’re willing to put in some extra effort it’s worth it. I tend to never stop using the Longbow throughout the matches though, so the Movement Speed becomes pointless, for me. Using the AF+KR combo just takes less effort and still has a good payoff.
I was looking for this phrase while writing my initial post… The lowest force necessary for the best outcome? I can’t remember.
I actually want the FH build to become her playstyle, as the AF+KR build is too passive. High mobility with short bursts would be more fun.
I agree with you, but again, I find the combo to be more reliable. Unlimited ammo is unlimited ammo, sadly.
The main issue for me, is that I tend to move alot, even jumping on almost every Longbow shot, so relying on specifically a headshot with the Ult for the CD becomes a lot less reliable than having the ammo to spam, even going for body shots. I basically play to run out of ammo.
I can see the appeal on Bosses for sure, but all three of her bows can do a good amount of damage to them anyway. You’re also not guarunteed Bosses, the plight of every pure Monster killing build.
If they nerfed or changed the ammo from the AF+KR combo, I’d probably run this more.
You’re right. It doesn’t make it any less awkward though. Both the Crit and bleed Talents suffer from the issue of forcing you into bad positioning, whereas 95% of the time other Ults have go arounds.
The point being that you can’t Ult > Block cancel with HM Ults, or aim at the floor to stop you going through (and still benefit).
The bleed can even be decent on Cata, but then the amount of times you get to use it are limited, unless you want to Ult through everything and hold block while your friends try to push you out, which has been my experience with it.
Not into the ground. I still want DW to be good on Shade, but I’m talking Crit Power build DW. Crit Power build is pretty balanced.
Unless you’ve seen a headshot build Shade walk through Tzeentch Twins Twitch, you won’t understand what I’m asking for. They can even melt Bosses without Ult. I don’t think the fact that they’re going for headshots justifies the damage it does, and I’m glad it’s somehow not a popular build.
It works with both DD and SnD. Headshot is also good for Dual Swords, despite the attack angle. You pretty much become WHC on crack.
Ah this is a fair enough point i suppose, indeed it is easier to just go AF with KR or LB and call it a day, although i still want to believe that FH and PS should be the path that rewards skilled use more somehow
If you are using the longbow do you actually need KR at all? I found it pretty easy to keep ammo topped up by just using conservative shooter + loaded bow against hordes. One use will see you regain a great deal of ammo instantly against non elites.
But on second thought i am aware that Cata spawns things a lot more frequently than legend and twitch mode goes bonkers as well which would indeed make more ammo&shooting a rather rewarding thing.
As for Handmaiden, indeed she cannot stop her dash but on the other hand she has a very short cooldown on it along with the Wraith walk talent to dodge through enemies. I think the synergy between a dash-heavy style and that talent are borderline overpowered good.
When i was playing it i found that unless a disabler stopped me then no horde or patrol could pin me down which was really awesome. If it wasnt for my my issue´s with the spear i´d likely play this a lot more
You mean to say that the “hit headshots for stacking bonus damage”&related builds are the issue? Yeah i think i can see where you are coming from given how silly high that multiplier stacks.
I am one of the goofballs who insist on using daggers with shade and i like the bleed talent and thusly lack personal experience with the power of the headshot damage buff but 100% up does not seem like it cant end up broken somehow
It does so even on Cata. By specializing in the active skill you can kill all horde enemies aside from Marauders. If you are ready to use Focused Spirit you can even kill Marauders with it. Especially in narrow areas this is murderous (with delay). You can also skip the Maradeur breakpoint and go for active skill spam. The breakpoints to me appear to be intentional (similar to Unchained’s active skill breakpoints) so I would be surprised if FS does change the damage (much) for the bleed talent.
As Kitten has written positioning can be an issue so you should have an eye on that. But as you have written yourself this can be circumvented with Wraith Walk if necessary.
Personally, I would consider a Bleed build on par with an Attack Speed build based on invisibility or a crit based build with her last talent. If played aggressively they net all around same damage. Although only on Cataclysm. On Legend and below I think the Bleed build appears rather shortcoming in damage. But even then it still has a place if you are a more defensive orientated player who wants to contribute some horde damage. Bleed has a bit higher risk due to the missining “convenience” of invisibility. But I consider it more fun and “safer” for the rest of the team.
How so? Is this a cry for help? Blink once if yes.
Seems like an ok weapon at best, with trademark awkward handling. Had its cleave property taken away because it was doing elf greatsword’s job too well (makes sense when written), but beyond that I don’t see what a low stamina, low cleave weapon can do that the dual wields can’t.
I’d say it’s because it’s the best balanced weapon. It’s not too strong, and it’s not too weak, it has clear strengths and weaknesses.
It cleaves through hordes like butter, and cuts down elites one by one; it only requires proper timing and technique, like all weapons.
It has low stamina because it isn’t meant to be used defensively; you have dodging and attacking for that. Albeit slow, it has a wide attack arc that should cover 360 degrees around you within a few swings if you move around cleverly.
Can’t confirm, still a powerhouse on HM, both on legend and cata. Breakpoints for light attacks still possible on HM, charged attacks wreck everything, anyhow. Solid choice on WS, bad because 2h weapon on Shade.
Agreed. Spear was absolutely fine the way it was. Nerf was uncalled for and completely baffled me as you didn’t exactly see it run as the go to weapon on any Keri. Her melee arsenal is already so hard to compete with as a 2h weapon. Spear’s attack chain already is a bit awkward, but can be worked with. light, light, charged wasn’t exactly the armour-deleting whirlwind of death, it required skill and, quite frankly, a bit of luck, considering the more than off aiming (aim for head, hit shoulder is already generous. More like: aim for head, hit either nothing or the groin). Was even a very solid and satisfying choice for shade (as it allowed picking off elites in hordes without much repositioning required). Completely outclassed by spear and shield.
Not only weak when compared to her other arsenal, it is simply a bad weapon with a clunky, unwieldy attack pattern that doesn’t chain much, a charged stab attack that has similar if not worse precision than spear, and underhand light attacks that hit the already medicore light attack damage even further, since headhunting becomes unpractical. Weird and hardly justifiable crit bonus on push attack doesn’t help, and there is no sensible way to chain light attacks or push attacks into the light-attack followup sweap that comes if you light attack after charged stab.
I would not mind the underhand light attacks if the pattern was more akin to bretsword. Charged attack being a stab is fine, but the light-attack horizontal followup needs a.) to be a charged attack and b.) you need to be able to chain into it without having to use the stab.
My suggestion for light attack pattern: underhand diagonal right to left, completely horizontal left to right, completely horizontal right to left, overhand diagonal right to left. Push attack can stay underhand diagonal left to right. Charged attack is stab, roundhouse horitzontal left to right, underhand diagonal right to left. Push attack chains into charged 3 or light attack 3, and light 3 and 4 should chain into charged 3 and 4, respectively.
Weapon would be okay if it were a weapon for anybody else. Lost some good important break points even on HM, is virtually useless on Shade, risky on WS. Attack pattern is needlessly bad.
Agreed. Stronger than made out to be due to very favourable attack pattern (light, light, charged leads into a surprisginly effective light 2 charged 2 loop for horde clearing, and chain can be started from push attack). Weapon is safe, but light-attack damage is indeed unreasonably low. However, charged 1, light 1 is an insanely good elite-killer. Doesn’t take much effort to kill SV on Legend with one charged attack followed by face-stab. Light-attack damage is, however, not only unintuitively, but injustifiably low. The weapon has alot of potential, and iirc, hidden BCR modifier on primary block angle, and doesn’t really have a “weakness” apart from its almost abysmally low horde-clearing. It is versatile, but feels unsatisfying to use. Small increase to light attack damage would suffice (applies to all 1h swords).
I think DS are mostly fine. Pattern is unwieldy at times and has a strange flow, since there is such a long delay between light attack 2 and 3, and 3 and 4, can be worked around with by block-cancelling. Armour damage is an issue, but charged 1 followed by block cancel and push-stab is okay, considering it is a relatively safe CC weapon with good cleave, mobility, short windup on first 2 lights and good opening with charged 1. Charged 2, though, is one of the most stupid attacks in the game. Surprisingly little range, a wierd, short lunge forward, long windup, long winddown, EXTREMELY wonky hitbox, and no damage advantage over charged 1, even though it is, by its animation, a decapitation move.
Suggestion: make charged 2 more reliable, less awkward, keep the small hitbox, increase headshot damage and maybe crit chance, make it accesible from push-stab (as in: Push-stab, charged 2 for elite killing).
Wierd thing about DS is that S&D somehow does the sword-part better, even though sword-damage is on dagger value, but attack pattern and flow is SO much better, and anti-armour move is accesible from push-stab. Attack pattern of DS should follow SD more.