[BIG BALANCE PATCH] Bardin

This topic is aimed at providing feedback for a possible Big Balance Patch.

Please when providing feedback, provide the career on which you provide feedback or the weapons in their full name (XSword is certainly Shorter than Executioner Sword, but it’s for clarity purpose).

Also try to keep your arguments shorts and to the point.
For example :

I do think Unchained lacks a specific role :

  • She have no means of control, therefore she’s not a real tank.
  • She lacks …

Other topics arounds thoses “Big Balance Patch” :
Topic for Kruber is here.
Topic for Kerrilian is here.
Topic for Saltzpyre is here.
Topic for Sienna is here.

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My argument for Bardin buffs is the AS disparity between Slayer and the other two Careers.

  • Low AS makes building 2H Weapons more awkward
  • Less stagger makes them more awkward to use and less safe (Slayer’s Ultimate)
  • More AS leads to more AS, because you get more reliable Swiftslaying uptime

I think both IB and RV could do with more AS, or something to make the slower Weapons not suck up all of their builds.

Of course slayer should be better, but it doesn’t mean the other two Careers should be limited so heavily and be more awkward to play. There’s times when I wonder if I’ll ever get a SS proc on IB.

Attack Speed comparison:

Slayer:

  • 60% without A Thousand Cuts
  • 70% with A Thousand Cuts

No need to build Power.
Has an AoE Stagger Ultimate.

Ironbreaker:
30%

Needs to build both Power and AS.
Has more damage mitigation.

RV:
35%

Needs to build both Power and AS.
Has an active damage mitigation.

Conclusion:
This is all before we get into Crit, which I don’t think we need to.

UPDATE:
They did it. :blush: They made IB with Greataxe god mode. :flushed:

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RV needs a full rework, his talents are dating, boring, not to mention they fail to stack up to other careers. RV basically only gets taken to really high end weaves to provide additional supplies to other careers, and meanwhile twiddles his thumbs and plinks shots every now and again. (Even then, his pickrate is low because most ranged careers dont run out of ammo)

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I don’t think he needs a full re-work, but changes to his talents since half of them are under whelming. I like the idea of him being a support/special killer with his Ingenious Improvisation and Survivalist. I think they should make his talent Scavenger should be on top of the Survivalist instead of replacing it. Make surprise Ghost and ranger’s parting gift on two different talent rows. Add more talents to improve the Grudgedraker (Such as improve ranged effectiveness). Add talents to have consumables coming back being confirmed or way less RNG based. Make him have a better way of reducing his CD for his F. Also, get rid of his useless talents.

He could also be buffed to meta tier if he got his previous guaranteed critical hits on his smoke bomb but they removed that, so that probably won’t happen.

Bardin has pretty decent ammo regen for him and his team with Grungi’s coming.

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3 out 4 of those useless talents are common to have in builds, lol. I actually use No Dawdling with axe and shield with move speed on trinket since 15% makes repositioning easier and gets value from shield’s limited dodge. Also being able to outrun randos so their blood ain’t on my hands when I get to grudging is pretty good.

I do want his talents to get reworked. Last Resort is for memes. Foe Feller I don’t mind, 15% possible attack speed ain’t nothing to look down on, but RV doesn’t come off as a true hybrid class with good melee. Might have to side with Kitten that it should be passive.

I won’t defend Share. Maybe it gets more value on low difficulties where specials just never spawn that much? Would rather it get replaced with something more creative.

Firing Fury I actually hate. Sometimes it procs and sometimes it doesn’t. People swear by it, but it triggers me when it doesn’t work.

Which weapon do you usually use with firing fury?
I believe handgun can only proc it on slave rats.
Throwing axe’s proc it consistently on right clicks but the talent is useless on that weapon.
Crossbow is fairly consistent.
Grudge is sometimes a little finicky with the pellets but not too bad, the bash can consistently proc it.

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Only grudge, can’t see the value of any other weapon with it. Didn’t know bash procced it, but don’t know if I’d want to reload within melee range.

Talent seems too circumstantial to justify using single target weapons with.

The problem I have with No Dawdling and Foe Feller is that it should be a passive instead of a talent, as the best talents are the ones that are active, and when you can control when they happen (Except for Last Resort). Personally, when I play RV he feels very ‘talentless’ because of this and it feels like I am playing the base career.

I also did some testing with the 15% movement speed with trinket and No Dawdling and I found out that Skaven and Chaos will always eventually catch up to you and hit you with the talent. Speed also doesn’t affect dodge distance or dodge count if I am aware. So yes while speed is good, you’re missing out with having Exuberance, firing fury and the properties on the trinket like Crit chance and stamina recovery, which these would keep you alive.

Yeah I agree that it should be a passive, not too bad to have though.

I don’t know about this one. I think it procs if you hit two enemies with the same pellet on the grudgedraker, not the ranged attack as a whole.

The key word is eventually. They outrun players by design, but that extra bit of distance and ability to push an enemy down before running away like a coward is enough for me. As the backline, I really value being able to reposition as fast as possible, and with a shield weapon I don’t mind giving up on exuberance. And sometimes you get stuck in a group that pushes too aggressively, even on Cata, so it’s advantageous to be able to catch up to the frontline and even get ahead so they have to help me with the 15 chaos warriors they’re ignoring.

Fair enough in that regard, I guess the extra speed’s usefulness depends on what weapons you are using and repositioning is always good. Personally I like the revive speed as you can get your teammates up in a clutch.

True, that. It’s not meta for a reason. With the hammers (dual or 1h) you can hit headshots easily and that 30% damage reduction is enough to make you feel like you can frontline. I kept dying like that so I grabbed a shield and got accustomed to staggering and trying to make pockets for my team when I can’t shoot :stuck_out_tongue:

As the topic about Bardin is not too old, moved it into Big Balance Beta from there.


Slayer could use some raw damage reduction and/or some health regen (not temp), plus a bit more maximum health. Temporary health on hitting targets with Leap, or a small lifesteal passive would/could help too. The reason I say this is that Slayer needs a little more raw room on the leash to make mistakes as I’ve seen more than plenty of people go down a lot faster and/or more frequently with Slayer than any other career, and they’ve said that the extra bit of speed with killing isn’t worth it.

Leap should also should force enemies away from him as to prevent being crowdsurfed (unless that’s been fixed, I don’t really play Slayer), and it doesn’t like to go all the way to the center of where you aimed, (ie it drops a little short). Trophy hunter could probably use an extra second or two of duration, and Dawri Drop should get a (very) brief period (half second or so?) in which it allows for the extra damage to be used in case of nearly getting that strike rather than being only while midar.

Yes, Grimnir’s Focus allows for a 40% damage reduction for short period upon a successful heavy attack, but doing such tends to mean you’re not likely to be using the dual weapons the slayer is good with ,unless you hit with a charged attack via Leap. 2H hammer/2H axe what you’d be using with GF,

Oblivious To Pain is a guaranteed 50% damage reduction against elites and monsters. This results in OTP being better overall for plenty of people on most (if not all) difficulties and using a variety weapon types, but isn’t really great in general when the vast majority of the time you’re going to be hit by anything except elites and monsters/bosses.

Comparing the two, I think duration GF’s duration should be increased by a few seconds (8-10) to make it last a bit longer, and that OTP should get a small 15% damage reduction vs anything other than elites/monsters.

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I really wish that Fatshark can change talents like ‘X% of chance to drop Y instead of ammo stash’ to ‘X% of chance to also drop Y in additional to the ammo stash’ since dropping a potion/bomb while the team is running of ammo is painful and make me less likely to pick those talents.
The talent can also be tweaked to become much more rewarding by adding an extra effect like ‘drop rate will be doubled if the special is killed by Bardin’ to the mentioned change.

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The problem with that is that it would become the uncontested best talent. No matter what weapon you’re using, just sending a quick heavy every 8-10 seconds will provide almost as much damage reduction as OTP, except vs everything.

For the rest of Slayer, I think he suffers from a lack of variety. His talents are pretty lackluster; the level 10 group discourages mixing light/heavy weapons with opportunity cost, and most others have one shining star that outclasses the gimmicks/worse talents.

For the weapons themselves:

  • 2h axe got better which is really great to see
  • 1h Axe got a buff making it even more attractive
  • Dual hammers are still pretty much the best melee weapon

Dual Axes got a little buff on headshot/crit damage I believe, but doing testing I’m still having trouble finding a reason to take them over 1h axe. A double headshot from a push/heavy attack (hard to do in-game) has more burst DPS over 1h axe headshots, but light attacks/body shots are much weaker with the DA and can’t perform nearly as well as the competition, especially on armor. I’d really like to see DA (a slayer-only weapon BTW) have some unique strengths that make it worth bringing over the dual hammers (which everyone can use).

For talents, Dawi Drop should have a half-second or so period after touching the ground where you still get the bonus. The old leap was fluid enough that it was just a matter of simple timing, now with the new jankier leap you start falling like a rock at seemingly random spots and a shot that should have landed well comes a millisecond after your feet touch the ground. Besides that, I’d like some new talents/passives that hit on slayer lore more, like a bonus vs monsters or something to that effect. Heck, I’ve even heard some people suggest that Slayer Bardin shouldn’t go DBNO since a slayer is unbreakable and fights to the death. It’d be unique and interesting to say the least to have him transition to grey without going down, representing his oath to die slaying worthy foes in glorious battle. It’s definitely sad to see no changes for him yet with the BBB.

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The attack speed on Gromril proc is great, it’s doesn’t have good uptime but when it happens it’s always felt.
Scavenger needs a buff. Randoms rarely use their bombs\potions and it makes no sense that this talent is worse than both old talents, considering that random choice of potion of bomb makes it worse (instead of freely spending one or the other, since you have a steady supply, you have a slow trickle of drops comparable to what spawns on the map). Old Share could be made a baseline.
Tier 2 on RV is real stinker. Master of Improvisation is inoffensive, while the other two are just bad.
If the RV is made into group support, rather than true ranged, maybe he should get actual melee talents on Tier 2.
Not a fan of No Dawdling and higher duration (~10 seconds) on Exuberance would be nice. If you can snipe heads, you’re probably not in melee, and in melee you’re too busy to headshot someone every 7 seconds.
I’d like to see Smoke Attack speed buff remade into something more selfish. If you’re all staying in the smoke, the THP is just too good. Surprise Guest still has its niche, but for support THP seems unquestionably better.

Was this supposed to be in response to me? :slight_smile:

I think RV needs most of his talents reworked, he seems really boring now that the “free bomb throw” talent got removed.
Lvl 10 talents are indeed pretty bad and the only one you are going to use for normal games is the 2sec CD on reload. The other ones are just for messin’ around.
“Share and Share Alike” needs to give a lil bit more ammo and “Scavenger” needs a rework.
Lvl 25 talents are now all interesting, you actually get to choose which one to pick (even love the “No Dawdling” because its really fun to use and can save the player in many situations).
Lvl 30 talents. I don’t know what to think of them, I really loved da FREE BOMB.

I think the new Share and Share alike is a step in the right direction, I really like it thematically.

However I do forsee (and have already run into) players rushing to hog the beers. “RV gets his ammo packs stolen” already happens enough that it’s a known annoyance, but now everyone wants a ( up to) 9% AS and 12% MS buff. Yes it lasts for 5 minutes but 4 players each wanting the full 3 stacks…

I think it could use a change to either something like “Bardin gets first dibs for the first 3-4 seconds, then other players can pick it up”.

Or alternately make it a smaller teamwide buff with more stacks. 1% a stack with up to 10 stacks, everyone within X meters gets a stack when someone drinks an Ale.

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I don’t really see why we need two different lvl 30 talents for RV that both encourage allies to stand in your smoke for slightly different reasons. Ult talents should diversify how you use your Ult, not just give slightly different buffs. IMO replace the attack speed one with the old free bomb talent and that row would be pretty alright, if still not all that interesting.

I think scavenger and new SaSa would both be fine talents if, as many have already pointed out, they have their supplies in addition to the usual ammo pouch. Right now picking either hurts your ammo sustain too much.

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