[BBB] Ranger Veteran Fundamental Problems

I liked the changes that buff his melee and put him in and out of melee. Also allows him to use his other drop talents without sacrificing all of his ammo sustain. Makes him better support.

Again, with greataxe he hits all of the breakpoints he needs to hit, and as for melee in ult why wouldn’t you? Just because it increases your ranged damage doesn’t mean it’s worth it to just shoot. It doesn’t boost your damage enough to make it worthwhile in most situations where you would pop your ultimate, whereas the extra attack speed, zero aggro and ability to hit through shields while invisible makes it entirely worthwhile to melee.

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What does this even mean? He doesn’t even have smiter.
I’m not exaggerating here, he is literally the worst melee character in the game even if you take every attack speed talent. The only comparably bad character would be FK. If you’re meleeing this much on RV, I would strongly consider just running IB or slayer.

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It means he hits good breakpoints. What are you not understanding?

Ah yeah, it’s an extra layer/mechanic to play around.

His ammunition sustain is horrendous with the ale talent and to a lesser degree with Scavenger too, I either feel coaxed into using Throwing Axes, playing extremely conservative or Grungni’s Cunning.

I personally feel there are a lot of careers that offer greater supportive capabilities than RV.

The value of team wide ammo sustain is overly exaggerated as well.
Melee careers don’t suddenly become more powerful at what they do with extra ammo and other ranged careers have enough sustain without him.

From a DWONS perspective it might be different but there is often more ammunition then they can expend with Grungni’s Cunning and majority of the ammunition is fed back into the grudge-raker

I’m sorry but what breakpoints can Rv reach that ironbreaker or slayer can’t? excluding his ‘last resort’ talent. If you can reach insanely good breakpoints with last resort, then i’d be glad to know and use them.

He can’t reach any that they can’t, i’m not trying to hype up his melee as something spectacular i’m just saying he’s hitting what he needs to hit.

Oh i see.

I think RV is in an awkward spot as Fatsharks idea of the support archetype, as he’s meant to be, does not correlate with what it actually means to support in the game. He is passively and randomly affecting the playthrough with talents and passives and not a lot of proactive options. Merc, IB, WH all have proactive abilities that can complete stabilize and also save runs and so represent what it actually means to support in this game, ults that can save a run and passive damage (high damage is inadvertently a safety measure too) and damage prevention methods, the importance of semi-reliable potions/bombs/ales is redundant and careers that can use his ammo usually already have a way to sustain them.
Merc is the ideal support as how the pace of the game has been since the original beta at least - and by comparison RV offers in no way the same support that is relevant in a run, he is outshined by many careers in the support department and he is far behind in dps department too.
He needs proactive abilities that can alter the outcome of the run that isn’t gated by largely negligible RNG based drops, he needs passives that makes you want to fight next to him and not an ult that makes the enemy suddenly shift their attacks to you, when you see him on the roster he should feel like more than extra ammo drops for the run


I kind of feel like they should just make ironbreaker the ‘support’ hero and turn ranger into a ranged damage dealer. You know, like how every single other character’s career’s are setup. As is when a ranger vet joins my pug game it’s always a little disappointing because he doesn’t really bring anything ‘strong’ to the team. Mind you this is just for pug legend, no comment on doomranger builds in premades.

I’d much rather have bardin get one guarantied extra use out of bombs than 10% chance to save any consumable.

And have the bomb ult talent back :slight_smile:

Having a dedicated grenadier could be fun, and as of itself, having a spare bomb is like having an extra CC ult

Agreed, proactive abilities are generally more interesting, fun or at the very least impactful.

Ranger Veteran’s supportive capabilities being passive, kinda just turns him into a vending machine. He doesn’t need to do anything; ammo, ales and potions will just be spit out at random.

With the new passive idea, Ranger Veteran’s DPS should increase based on missing ammunition.
A talent that resupplies ammunition to the closest ally and a talent that allows him to reliably dupe potions; more proxy effects.

There’s also one talent that just increases bomb/potion effectiveness which is a little on the boring side and could be replaced with something more proactive, for example:

New Potion/Aura idea.
Upon scoring a ranged critical hit, Bardin triggers an aura based on his current held potion. Lasts 5 seconds.

Aura effects would just be weaker potion effects (ATK + MS speed, Power + AP, cooldown)
Duration could be increased or decreased depending on balance state.
It has nice synergy with the crit passive idea, rewarding players for micromanaging ammo.
It’s also proactive and offers another way to take advantage of potions instead of directly using them.

Of course I have no idea if this is in the realm of possibility but, it strengthens the idea of RV being akin to items instead of just being a vending machine. Getting rid of the reliance on holding a potion is also a possibility, instead making it more integrated into his kit.

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An interesting examination of the core of the RV’s kit and the issues rooted therein. But I’m surprised to see no mention of a problem that I consider to be a key part of the Ranger Vet’s current state.

Namely, the lackluster nature of Disengage.

Case in point, let us compare Disengage with another ranged career’s stealth based ultimate. The Huntman’s Prowl.

Disengage Prowl
Duration 10 sec 6 sec
Ranged Power bonus 50% 50%
Cooldown 120 sec 90 sec
Cast time? Yes No
Reload speed bonus 0% 40%
Infinite ammo? No Yes
Staggers enemies? Yes No
Attacking breaks stealth? No Yes
Leaving casting area breaks stealth? Yes No

At base, Disengage’s advantages over Prowl are 4 seconds of duration, being able to attack while stealthed, and an AoE stagger. While it’s disadvantages are a longer cooldown time, an interruptable cast time, lacking the throughput bonus of additional reload speed reduction, ammo sustain, and restricted movement.

Personally, I think those trade offs are pretty crap. Prowl’s nature is more binary, the player either uses it to press the attack or to shed aggro, but I feel like that also gives the player more impactful choices to make. Disengage feels like two half measures in comparison.

Yeah Disengage is lackluster in comparison to Hunter’s Prowl.
Hunter’s Prowl has a lot of potential, a skilled Huntsman can get a lot done in 6 seconds compared to an RV in 10…

Somebody can correct me if I’m wrong, Hunter’s Prowl ranged bonus is greater than Disengage.
At least from a quick test it appears to be the case. (Without Maim, Make 'Em bleed or One in the eye)

I didn’t mention Disengage much if at all because I think Survivalist and related RNG mechanics are bigger core issues. I imagine Disengage is a much easier thing to balance.

On the off chance RV does get reworked, buffing Disengage could potentially make RV overshadow Huntsman.

Disengage talents are also going in a different direction:
Thp/attack speed is more supportive.
Stealth not breaking feels more like a run and clutch kind of talent
Bomb dupe is just straight up horde clear/Crowd control.

Reducing the animation/wind up time on Disengage would be a welcomed start.

THP ult could be tweaked, I believe the buffs should linger for the full 10 second duration even if Bardin leaves Disengage early.

Sometimes leaving Disengage early is a good choice to split enemy aggro across more players, staying in stealth can sometimes be a liability for the rest of the team.

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I’d really like if disengage worked a bit more intuitively, like an actual smoke bomb by default, conferring some advantages to the whole party, but I’m struggling to think of any way this could be done practically other than something completely broken, like cloaking all allies in its radius (yes I’m aware that’s outrageous and unbalanceable). Maybe a slow effect or similar for enemies in its radius for the duration, offering some prolonged control, would work with its current identity.

I’m just not sure how appealing it currently is for your team to just stand in your kinda small smoke bomb radius for its entire duration for a little thp and attack speed. Allies getting the full buff simply for running through it at some point in the duration would be one solution, but it’s a not a particularly interesting one. I’d prefer some base functionality of the Ult was added or reworked to make your whole team bunching up in a smoke bomb a more desirable choice, because its cool to me thematically, but I dunno if it’s that practical currently other than running up to a team mate in a bad spot and smoke bombing on them to help out.

Rv does have the option to reduce it with the reload talent. Rv also has more options with his ult, free bomb, hp.

I think Disengage is fine when paired with the level 30 talents. Parting Gift is unique and powerful. The main problem with RV is the RNG nature of the ammo/ale/potion/bomb drops. Ammo should drop from specials, while everything else should drop after X number of ranged kills or X number of specials killed (like Grail Knight penitent duty drops) to give these drops a level of predictability. Ammo drops should occur at the shooter’s location not the location of the special’s death so resources aren’t wasted. Similarly, potions, bombs, ale should drop on Bardin’s location - at least the RV would have the option to pick these up first and directly benefit from the talents he picked.

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Like most of RVs kit, it has a number of drawbacks that aren’t negated by the upsides. Disengage is a utility ult, but lacks… utility.

Really just brining it down to a 90 second cooldown time and making it an instant fire would put RV in a much better position.

A long ‘disoriented’ state for enemies caught in it would be a nice start, a minor buff would be for ranged enemies to be unable to target Heroes inside the smoke area.

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Disengage is anything but weak, or lacking utility. The only greave with it I have is that it has a 2 min CD. There is no reason for that. 90 seconds would be more than fine.

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