[BBB] Ranger Veteran Fundamental Problems

Ranger Veteran has been in an odd place for some time now, he’s had his glaring issues:

  1. Severely lacking in the melee department.
  2. Little to no synergy with Handgun or Throwing Axes.
  3. Scaling issues largely to do with specials.
  4. Fundamental flaws regarding Survivalist.
  5. No clear direction, is he a support, a ranged career, a melee hybrid or something else?

With the release of the latest BBB a couple of these problems have been alleviated, primarily his melee choices have been improved thanks to the buffs and tweaks from Fatshark and the modding community.

  • Ranger’s Ambush - (Reworked)
    Allies inside of Bardin’s smoke gains 8% increased attack speed.

The new Ranger’s Ambush offers a supportive option that boosts Bardin’s and allies melee potential.
Throwing Axes also benefit tremendously from attack speed; an added layer of synergy.
However, considering Bardin gains ranged attack power during Disengage there’s not much synergy with his kit outside of Throwing Axes.
This talent is incredibly outclassed by the following talent.

Ranger’s Parting Gift - (Reworked)
Allies inside of Bardin’s smoke regenerate 3 temporary health every second.

Again, this talent elevates Ranger Veteran’s supportive capabilities offering up to 30thp to the entire party under the condition they remain in the smoke cloud. Previously Ranger Veteran could enter stealth and potentially be a liability to his team; all aggro switches to allies. Now he still supports the team while in stealth.
One problem arises, allies will huddle around Ranger Veteran’s smoke, potentially leading incoming attacks such as overheads into him.


I would like to see old Ranger’s Parting Gift return, it was incredibly fun, strong and unique. He was the only career in the game to consistently dupe bombs, meaning he could consistently apply shrapnel; supporting by debuffing enemies by 20% for the team.
Returning Ranger’s Parting gift, replacing duration with party thp and combining duration/allowing Bardin to phase through enemies with “Surprise Guest” will offer 3 competitive ult talents


Exuberance - (Modified)
Bardin takes 30% less damage from the back. Headshots reduce damage taken by 30% for 7 seconds.

This talent was already solid, it’s even better now. Duration increase of 2 has made this talent more forgiving. Backstab damage reduction is a nice safety net.
Backstab damage reduction and headshot damage reduction do not stack; It would most likely be over-tuned if it did.


Ranger’s Fundamental problem

Survivalist
Specials drop ammunition pickups on death that restore 10% of maximum ammo when picked up.

Ranger Veteran is the only career in the game that can supply ammunition to allies, however Survivalist has some flaws.

Ranger has little control over Survivalist:

  1. Special spawns vary level to level, on average it’s about 3 - 4 specials per minute (cata) but a variety of things can impact that such as: Map, deed, twitch mode, difficulty, mods, ingame events/lord fights e.g The Pit hideout burn event or Enchanters Lair Nurgloth fight. You could go entire lord fights without ammo sustain as RV.

  2. Survivalist caches can drop out of bounds; dropping on special corpses can result in unreachable caches.

  3. Unlike other careers with supportive capabilities, Ranger doesn’t always reap the benefits of his own passive. Players have to decide or potentially fight over who takes the Survivalist cache, it happens. Where as careers like Footknight, Handmaiden, Huntsman, Mercenary or Witch Hunter all put themselves first with their supportive tools, allies have to play around them. A Ranger Veteran could go AFK and allies will still benefit from him.

  4. Throwing Axes lack synergy with Survivalist, caches can’t be picked up. Slayer performs better with Throwing Axes despite being a melee career and having 2 less ammo. Slayer covers their weaknesses, Ranger does not.

  5. Survivalist ammo sustain is poor in comparison to other ranged careers like Bounty Hunter, Huntsman and Waystalker yet is shared among multiple players and considered “supportive”.

I’ll use crossbow/Empire Longbow/Elf Longbow and the average 4 specials per minute as a basis.

  • Bounty Hunter recovers roughly 12 - 20 ammunition per min purely from blessed shots + scrounger.

  • Huntsman recovers 1 ammunition per headshot, 3 ammunition per special kill + 0 ammo consumption during Hunter’s Prowl.

  • Waystalker can recover 0 - 12 - 24 - 36 - 40+ ammunition per ult or conservative shooter + ult.
    Consistently from a 40 - 80 second cooldown without taking into account cooldown from hitting enemies. Keep in mind 30% to WS longbow is 12 ammunition compared to BH/RV/HS 9 ammunition with crossbow/empire longbow

  • Ranger Veteran recovers 40% ammunition per min (12 ammunition), but caches can potentially drop out of bounds and allies can also pick up pouches, splitting that 40% across multiple players.

Point is Ranger Veteran is also a ranged career with a strong synergy between Master of Improvisation + Firing Fury which relies on expending ammunition to reload yet has lowest/least control ammo sustain out of the ranged careers + openly shares it with allies.


Share and Share Alike - (Reworked)
Killing a special has a 50% chance to drop an Ale that increases attack speed by 3% and movement speed by 4% for 300 seconds.

The old Share and Share Alike was just a bandaid fix for the teamplay problems mentioned above.
Ale drops provide up to 9% attack speed and 12% movement speed which is nothing to scoff at.
It has some synergy with throwing axes and supports allies but cuts Ranger Veterans already poor ammo sustain by half.


Scavenger
Killing a special has a 20% chance to drop a potion or bomb instead of a Survivalist cache.

Scavenger suffers the same problem but to a far lesser degree. Potions and bombs are useful if players properly utilize them, a talent that improves the effectiveness of these drops or provides other bonus’s could open up new synergies and builds.


Grungni’s Cunning
Increases ammunition restored by Survivalist caches to 30%.

Grungni’s Cunning is a solid talent, restoring 30% ammunition per cache.
Crossbow: 9 ammo
Handgun: 7 ammo
Grudge: 7 ammo

This solves all of Ranger Veteran’s ammo problems but it reaches a point of having more ammo than you know what to do with. Caches can still drop out of bounds and allies can steal every pouch they see but it’s less punishing.


Ingenious Improvisation
Using any Healing Supplies, Potions or Grenades has a 10% chance to not consume the item.

Unlike weapon swings and critical hits, items are limited. 9 out of 10 times it wont proc, once the item is gone it’s gone. Too much is left to chance, Ingenious Improvisation is negligible and not very impactful.


Conclusion: Ranger Veteran is an interesting character but severely lacks consistency, synergy and has very little control over his passive, too much is left to chance and what is considered a “supportive” passive can feel like a pain with uncoordinated/greedy allies.
He is portrayed as a Ranged career but as of right now, it feels like he is being pushed in the melee hybrid/support direction.


Potential changes

While Grungni’s Cunning/Firing Fury/Master of Improvisation + Grudge (DoomRanger) is extremely powerful; I personally think Survivalist has to go in favor of something with more control, such as a trigger or a timer for a new gameplay loop or just for the sake of consistency.

Lore wise, Dwarf Rangers are a walking arsenal with expertise in both melee and ranged combat. They’re extremely cunning and make use of anything and everything at their disposal for example traps, bombs, potions, intoxicating enemies. etc Specializing in stealth and surprisingly agile despite carrying around their entire kitchen…


Survivalist - (Rework)
Melee critical strikes recover 1 ammunition.

Survivalist now offers a more consistent, reliable way of recovering ammunition without being dependent on a specific enemy type an and interesting game-play loop. Ranger Veteran actually has to do something for his ammunition. This will also improve the fluidity of Throwing Axe game-play, dipping in and out of melee combat instead of scrambling for dropped Axes or slowly recalling Axes.

Ingenious Improvisation - (Rework)
Critical strike chance increases by 4% per 16.6% of missing ammunition.

Replaces the unreliable and barely noticeable chance to dupe items.
Offers another new game-play loop, the lower Ranger’s ammunition the easier ammo sustain becomes, teeter tottering his ammo. The increase of crits as his ammo drops will also increase his melee and ranged damage potential as well as consistently proccing traits such as: SS, RC, RS, Scrounger and Hunter. Handgun, Crossbow and Throwing Axe builds should feel a little stronger and much more fluid as well as pushing doomranger into melee more instead of ranging everything.

Crossbow would gain 4% crit chance for every 5 ammo missing.
Grudge/Handgun would gain 4% crit chance for 4 ammo missing.
Throwing Axe would gain 4% crit chance for every 1 ammo missing.
(Throwing axe: Assuming base ammo is bumped by 1)

Numbers can be tweaked for balance reasons.

If you want to see the rest of his rework or my envision of Ranger Veteran here:

Ranger Veteran Rework.txt (4.8 KB)

13 Likes

I’d definitely like to see RV’s item use brought back, except without being based off of chance. IMO the most unique build that RV has/had is the bomb/pot dupe builds, but the inconsistency was huge. Depending on the map item spawns, you could be deprived of bombs for the entirety of a map, making your talent picks useless. Even if you do get a bomb, using it outside of your ult is a huge risk, since your “superior” dupe chances aren’t actually in your favor. Not to mention the current item-drop talent being only a 20% chance to get one 1 of 5 different items. That’s a 4% chance to get a specific item, or an 8% chance to get a grenade for any special killed. Ranald loves playing games with stuff like that, and so you can have games with a grenade surplus or grenade drought with a build that specializes in grenades.

I like your idea with specials killed upping the chance for grenade dupe, but I think it might be better if the focus is on grenade generation as opposed to retention. Like guarantee that every 3rd or 4th or whatever special killed drop a grenade, which provides a consistent supply for your build while also helping you pace your grenade usage, since you can predict when your next bomb will arrive. My goal would be to have 3 talents spread throughout the tree, one being a grenade performance improvement, one being to produce the grenades, and the last being the bomb dupe Ranger’s Parting Gift.

In lore, Rangers are supposed to be the sneaky, ambushy, outsmarty kind of hunters, so it would make sense that RV isn’t a DPS kinda ranged class. In terms of Vermintide 2 builds, I’d say a bomb-centric build, a Bugman’s/pot utility build and a more offensive Ranger’s Ambush/melee capable kinda thing would be good playstyles to encourage. You’re right that he doesn’t really have direction, and focusing on his uniqueness/utility would be a wise thing IMO.

3 Likes

Great post, well explained. Great rework ideas aswell.
I have a question though:

Does this mean waystalker can get 40+ ammo back on scrounger + default ult? or was this including the ultimate talent kurneous reward? I don’t really understand the last line of that quote, i’m a bit confused.


Personally i like the share and share alike rework. It does cut your ammo in half but the drinks aren’t that ‘rare’ to get. It does still have issues that it drops at the specials feet, could be out of bounds etc.

Parting gift was honestly a bit too strong i think, especially since firebombs are so good for high density groups of enemies. You would also have it ready at every horde, so it was just a free wave clear. I mean i would love to get it back, but i don’t think it’s best.

Everything else i pretty much agree with.


I always thought of ‘ranged careers’ to be stronger in range, but not be range only. Right now BH is just crossbow spam, Waystalker is just spam, ult, sienna aswell to a certain degree (has been reduced by not gaining ult cdr from ranged, but still), rv with shotgun. Thats why i like your idea, as you get ‘forced’ in melee, thats why i like bloodshot on waystalker (even though you don’t need it), same with bh, you can just get everything back with scrounger trait, gotta be carefull in higher difficulties when shooting fast, but otherwise you’ll be fine, the passive cd isn’t even that long.

Huntsman on the other hand i think is a bit better balanced as he requires headshots to get his ammo back or needs to score a hs to get increased crit for scrounger, or kill specials before his teammates, has to use his ultimate and his headshot talent goes well for melee.

Overall great post, i hope rv get’s the attention he deserves in this BBB.

I really love RV’s identity as the guy who overcomes mediocre stats through smart and regular use of potions and bombs, the problem has always been RNG and consistency.

My vision of RV looks something like this. Keep in mind all numbers are rough and would obviously need to be tweaked:
Survivalist is tweaked so that ammo pouches drop at RV’s feet instead. This allows him first dibs and stops ammo spawning in unreachable spots.

Ingenious Improvisation instead makes heals, potions, and bombs 10-15% more potent. i.e. more healing for you or who you’re healing, more duration for potions (preferably extending to people getting potion effects from your proxy potion), and more damage and/or blast radius for bombs. This is a consistent effect that you will feel largely regardless of RNG, and is still on theme for the character.

Scavenger I would change to deposit the bomb/potion directly into your inventory (or at your feet if the slot is full), and do so at regular, but staggered intervals e.g. you get either type of bomb on 5th, 15th, 25th etc. special killed by the party, and potion (with the type cycling) on the 10th, 20th, 30th special killed etc. There could even be buff icons with a countdown for each to help you keep track of it. This is consistent, and I feel removes the need to bring Ranger’s Parting Gift back, though I’m on the fence on that one. This also synergises nicely with dupe traits, since you can treat them as a bonus but not something you rely on, since your next potion/bomb is coming at a reliable rate regardless.

Share and Share Alike I’m kinda ok with being a throwing axe only pick, but he needs other things in his kit to synergise with that weapon if so. I’d prefer if it gave the ammo pouch as well, and that the ale also spawned at Bardin’s feet.

Don’t love the new Ult talents, but I won’t venture into other talents here, as I wanted to focus on how to accentuate one of his possible build identities (item master, basically) and iron out his passives’ consistency in this post.

1 Like

Waystalker can get anywhere from 0% - 180% ammunition per ult using Kurneous reward.
Conservative shooter + ult just depends on how many enemies you headshot per trueshot volley. I purposely didn’t mention Scrounger ults, it’s less consistent than the previous 2 methods.

That last line is kinda irrelevant now that I read back, but I was saying WS increased ammo capacity means she gains more ammunition per 30% ult compared to RV 30% cache (12 > 9)


Ranger’s Parting Gift was very unique and felt characteristic to RV but I do admit it was very strong.
However, I think the removal of Ranger’s Parting Gift has hurt Throwing Axe and Handgun builds more so than Doomranger as they can’t compare to the horde clear potential of Grudge.
The bomb talent covered their weaknesses.

The idea was to have consistent item dupes to proc the new No Dawdling party wide movement speed. But if it’s too imbalanced, replacing Ranger’s Parting Gift with something else is justified.
Perhaps a direct ult damage, a smoke cloud that damages enemies or intoxicates them, applying some kind of debuff.

I believe Ranger’s Parting Gift would be a competitive choice with thp ult. “Do I want more damage or do I want to heal my allies?”


The new passive combination pushes RV into melee more which can be seen as a nerf to Doomranger which is perfectly fine by me, it was his strongest build and over-performing under the right conditions, I’ve seen DWONS players have a 8:1 ratio of range to melee kills.

However I consider it a slight buff to Crossbow, Handgun builds and should make Throwing Axe builds feel much more fluid to use.
Instead of scrambling for dropped axes or slowly recalling them, RV can enter melee to recover them. It’s a new gameplay loop, it should make them feel more fun. (The biggest complaint I hear about Throwing Axes is they can feel a bit janky/clunky to use)

1 Like

I left a .txt file in the post showcasing a potential talent rework.

I’ve kept a bunch of item master themed talents such as:

  • Increased effectiveness with bombs and potions (that could be duration, damage, proxy etc)

  • A reliable way not to consume bombs and potions. “Killing specials increases Bardin’s chance not to consume an item by 25%. Stacks 4 times. Stacks are lost upon use” (The % gained per special kill could be decreased if it’s unbalanced.)

  • Increased party wide movement speed upon using an item.

  • Returned bomb dupe as an ult talent.


I didn’t include healing supplies because I felt there is already a lot of sustain in the game and having a consistent way to dupe/generate healing supplies could result in RV just being a top pick.
Already imagining heal share + medpack dupes + thp ult getting out of control.


I like the idea of his item builds being exclusively bombs, potions are fun but could potentially get out of hand. It would also fortify RV as the grenade guy or bring back old memes like “Bomb Shitter Bardin”

Kinda what I was going for, expanding upon his item synergy as well as pushing RV into melee more.
He’ll be in and out of melee for his ammunition, like I said above to @Mattie, it will be a slight nerf to Doomranger (Arguably the most ranged heavy build) but a buff to the rest of his playstyles, especially Throwing Axes.

1 Like

Yea i understand. One thing i’ll respond to that is shade having acces to hagbane with dd to cover her weaknesses. It’s not 100% the same, but still. You are probably right tho, putting it back and having a choice between hp and bomb would be a good choice, i think i would still go with bombs tho, health would be more consistent that’s true.

One thing i’ve been thinking is how big is rv’s smoke cloud actually? Like you said in your thread, players will stack on you and you’ll be weak to overheads trying to range.

Yes, i’m totally fine to push ranged careers into melee, every couple of minutes. It would probably not even be such a huge nerf, as you could just shotgun, ult, melee with no worries, repeat.

I’m fine with RV having mediocre personal ammo generation, as it forces him to think about what is worth his ammo and its a skill that isnt called upon much in VT2.

What im not fine with is his reliance on RNG for his core passive, its nice in theory to be able to dupe items but you just cant plan around it meaningfully.

I’ve always wanted to see RV be ‘the item guy’, it would tie in with his improvisational theme. ‘Parting Gift’ works toward this, but when it comes to healing and pots RV bumps his head on the book mechanic.

my proposal to replace the item dupe passive:

Utility belt
Bardin has an additional item slot that can hold either a potion or grenade

This lets bardin still use potions if forced to take a grim, and it lets him not have to save a grenade for his ability if using parting gift.

1 Like

I rather like this idea, and it would help greatly when scavenger + map drops decides to just dump more supplies on you than you could carry.

However, you’d be no better off in the reverse scenario where scavenger just decided not to give you anything but ammo. There needs to be broader changes to even out his RNG e.g. my earlier scavenger suggestion:

The recent crit proc changes gives me hope FS is moving in a good direction on these kinds of mechanics.

I agree that the Scavenger drops need to be more predictable with regards to potion and bomb drops. Maybe they could just make every special drop ammo using the RV passive and have the Scavenger talent behave more like the Grail Knight’s Virtue of the Penitent talent and drop pots/bombs after X number of RANGED kills - don’t know if it should be team ranged kills or RV ranged kills. Like the Grail Knight strength pots, the Scavenger bombs/pots should drop at Bardin’s location when the kill count is reached.

Loved the potential changes. Also, give him Smiter for the love of god.

4 Likes

RV is in a pretty good place IMO with the 2nd change to the BBB. He can stack ridiculous attack speed, and since great axe was buffed he can use it and have effective breakpoints without sacrificing too much melee cleave. On top of that, with great axe he can hit the breakpoints he needs to hit while using enhanced power, which will then further buff his ranged attacks. Even if you’re not using greataxe, 1H hammer with mainstay and some other combinations still get the job done.

Not saying he can’t be improved, but i’m happy with the fact that he’s better at all.

You mean like 22% during his ult on a 2 min CD? Ridiculous.

Yes? He can walk around with consistent 14% extra attack speed (foe feller and ale) and then boost it up to 22% during his ult. That’s alot.

I think he should replace bulwark with Smiter, and get health on kill instead of stagger. That would help his great axe, 1h axe usage a lot.

I do like a lot of the changes suggested in this thread, but they may be beyond the scope of the BBB.

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It’s really not though is the thing. Especially given how weak his melee toolkit is and how poorly his ranged weapons scale with attack speed. Attack speed buffs to RV during ult change almost nothing. Why would you pop your ult and then melee? That’s a brain dead play lol.

outside of ranged not scaling with attack speed you’re just saying blatantly wrong things lmao

Please explain how strong his melee toolkit is or how it’s a big brain strat to pop an ult that increases your range damage massively and then melee things inside your little bubble. I’m dying to hear it.

1 Like

Smiter would be fantastic for a bunch of his weapons, particularly axes.

Which changes did you like or didn’t like? It’s both feedback for devs as well as me. ^^

Agreed, if I want to play a melee career I’d rather play Slayer. Granted RV currently offers some supportive capabilities and my rework pushes RV into melee but that’s primarily for ammunition to support his own ranged potential.

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