Back to Bögenhafen (Fixes + Content Update Suggestions)

While I don’t know that I really read the names and descriptions of every weapon that I own, they are still an important piece of polish that would feel missing and sad to be without. I don’t think it’s worth sacrificing.

Now, writing is definitely important work and it’s definitely something that is non-trivial. One thing is for sure: that fans of this game and Warhammer in general are definitely the type of people that would write an essay about their game.

Now, if they add 50 items that all need names and descriptions that fit some Warhammer lore, that’s ballpark of at least 4000-5000 creatively inspired words, which is pretty significant.

Solution to the writing issue: community engagement and outsource creativity! Back in the day, when the game Team Fortress 2 was in full swing, a lot of that game’s content was community generated: maps, cosmetic items, weapon models/animations, etc. One such contest, for eager (but not artistically-inclined fans) was the “Hat Describing Contest”, where Valve let the community post on their official forum to write descriptions for hats. The best ones were selected to be in the game by the TF2 team.

There was no in-game reward or incentive, just a contest on the official forum. Fatshark I’m sure could add a portrait frame for winning submissions if they did something similar, but the ability to say “I wrote that funny sentence that appears in-game” was motivation enough for the TF2 community.

From the TF2 official blog:

Eh? Eh?

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Well the easiest way i think the Bogenhafen DLC could be improved is:

  1. Optimization. Maps run horribly at times, such as stutterering, audio distortion, crashes etc. Fix these issues and the DLC will be alot better.

  2. New Weapons: 5 new weapons, one for each career, y’know the standard thing that the BTU and WoM have. Preferably make most of them ranged weapons as there’s already a load of melee options for all characters… Well except Sienna, but that’s more of an issue of over half her melee weapons being underpowered trash.

  3. New Map. After collecting the runesword you have to take it to X place to have it destroyed by X person, but X person betrays you and steals the sword and gets turned into a plagued version of a chaos spawn to which you have to fight/kill and take back the sword. Then it’s simply a case of escaping X place with the sword.

Doing these 3 things alone would instantly make the DLC a hell of alot better and it would garner plenty of good PR. I do like the things other people have suggested too.

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With all due respect to the work you have done, but I’m afraid that there is not much sense in it. Why? Because I have never heard anyone improve or add content to the DLC, which has already released (I may be wrong, but I do not remember similar case - excluding mmo rpg games ofc)
FS is now working on WoM. After its release, there will probably be a lot of work with the patches, tweaks etc. and the new content is waiting, because that’s what customers want.
I am afraid that apart from optimization and minor adjustments, there is no reason to expect fundamental changes in Bogenhafen DLC :frowning:

And word about community content like in TF2. We must remember that the warhammer brand does not belong to FS but to GW. GW is very restrictive when it comes to adding new products to their universe and I think it’s very good, because thanks to this there is no flood of garbage as in the case of other games.
But describing contest… maybe who know… In any case, nothing is happening in this area.

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Of course, best way is putting lore on illusions i agree that.
but if we put lore for adding in already released dlc purple illusions, dev should put them to all supported language.
it will cost more than giving illusions only which means our chance to get them will be lower if we stick lore with illusions.

also there is purple illusion without lore on S&D
and i didn’t see that anyone report this
players who have this illusions knew this illusions had no lore, no special name but they didn’t care
if devs have limited money, then i think just illusions are not bad

my points are
1.best way is putting lore + new name for additional purple
2.but putting lore + new name for supported languages cost money than just put purple
3.furthermore, only few players care lore + name but most players don’t care

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I’m quoting and replying to everyone in one big comment rather than doing individual comments to everyone.

True, I did have framerate issues at times during The Pit when there’s a lot of stuff going on. The main areas are when you’re in an upper part of the Pit and during the burning building escape, for me personally.

I think the first one could be explained by just how big the map is, maybe work needs to be done to optimize what gets drawn and different LODs on the models, I haven’t investigated this. The second one, I think a lot of the debris combined with all the enemies on the screen might be overworking the CPU. I’m not sure, it’s definitely worth investigating the map with Hwinfo open to see what’s going on.

This is still an important consideration: if my fairly new computer chugs on DLC content that isn’t as optimized as the base game, people on the lower end of the system requirements spectrum may not be able to experience this content properly at all. There doesn’t appear to be separately listed system requirements for the DLC.

Absolutely, I agree. My only thing would be if we tie the weapons to Bögenhafen in much the same fashion as Back to Ubersreik, where you play the maps as each hero, I’d greatly prefer if the weapons were freely available content to players.

Vermintide 1 had a fairly good approach to it: you could get DLC weapons by playing DLC maps, regardless of if you owned the DLC (although it was still randomly dropped like everything else). People who owned the DLC could host the maps and therefore grind out to get the weapons much earlier than people who did not own the DLC.

Vermintide 2 has reneged on this by locking weapons behind DLC, especially meta-relevant ones. The Axe and Falchion, Dual Hammers, and Crowbill are particularly strong for their careers. The A+F is best in slot for Saltzpyre, and it’s only getting nerfed to coincide with Winds of Magic’s release, several months later. I don’t like this “pay-to-win” precedent they started. I have a feeling that the new weapons will all be meta-relevant and people will buy Winds of Magic just to get overpowered new toys. It’s like when Payday 2 had DLCs where you got a Rocket Launcher (releasesd 6 March 2015) as a replacement for a pistol and later a six-shot Grenade Launcher (released 26 March 2015), but then they eventually released a free rocket launcher and grenade launcher months or years later after all those possible DLC sales had been made. The Compact 40mm grenade launcher was only released for free over two and a half years later, on Christmas Eve 2017! I’m sure the other weapons were nerfed along the way some time prior, but that’s not even a fraction of the pay-to-win weapons they added. It’s a bad path to start down, even if Vermintide 2 doesn’t get as nuts as Payday 2’s DLC did.

That being said, they should totally give a Grenade Launching Blunderbuss to Kruber lol. As part of a DLC, yes, but available to non-owners to prevent it being pay-to-win. It was hiding in the game files of Vermintide 1 at some point. We should go back to the Vermintide 1 DLC method: not locking away important content from people just because we may think it increases the value proposition of the DLC. You should buy a DLC because you want to play the maps and support the developers, not because you want exclusive access to some of the best weapons in the game.

Yep! I agree. I think it’s still important to go back and fix the maps as part of the content update, since they still have the problems you and I, as well as many others, have talked about.

I mean… you just contradicted yourself? How is Fatshark unable to improve or add content to this DLC, when you immediately just said they’ll be busy improving and adding content to the next DLC. I believe they’ve said on-stream that they’re interested in doing a random, endless Weave mode. Even then, if there’s a team working on the next content update after Winds of Magic, why can’t it be a free new map and free new weapons to the community before Christmas time: y’know, as a good-faith gift?

On top of that, most of the changes to the maps are minor tweaks. That’s the point. It’s such little work to fix the Pit and the Blightreaper, although more work can be done to greatly improve the maps as well. They’ve gone back and changed book locations and changed jumping puzzles after release. Look at Righteous Stand’s first Grimoire: that jumping puzzle got patched and reworked. Look at “The Dungeons” from Castle Drachenfels from Vermintide 1. Fatshark themselves added a whole new Tome to the map while fixing a glitch that was discovered by someone, and named that Tome area after that person! In the age of the internet, there is no reason to not go back and fix something that can be improved.

So, no, you’re absolutely wrong on this point.

and the new content is waiting, because that’s what customers want.
I am afraid that apart from optimization and minor adjustments, there is no reason to expect fundamental changes in Bogenhafen DLC :frowning:

Consumers aren’t a monolith. There’s at least some people that like the idea of improving old, flawed content so that they can appreciate it with a fresh new perspective. I don’t understand your point. I’m suggesting a new content update while also tying it in to a previous thing that should be fixed. Half the post is new content, which I think customers would want, while the other half is optimization and minor adjustments. They can go hand-in-hand and they can be at different phases of development, not necessarily concurrently. I’d love if the book changes got squeezed in to the Winds of Magic release. Those changes alone would make a world of difference.

This is true, the fact that they’re licensing an IP and don’t have full control over it may restrict being able to do a contest like I said. I doubt that it would work in retrospect, but at least it was an idea worth sharing and critiquing.

I forgot about translations/localizations as well. That definitely makes it stickier. You raise a good point. I suppose there’s no reason the weapon illusions descriptions couldn’t be added at a later date if they just wanted to release the illusions as content.

Thanks for all the replies, everyone. It’s good to see some meaningful discussion and different perspectives about what’s important.

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Replying to myself to add another insight from Reddit, this one’s a bit more innovative, but a cool idea that could really separate the Blightreaper and a potential 3rd map even moreso than just “it’s dark and there’s fireworks”, since Hunger in the Dark is already, y’know… dark, and the torch mechanic was yoinked ‘Straight outta Drachenfels/Stromdorf’.

From a comment by /u/hunhaze in the reddit thread.

I like the original idea with the Blightreaper sapping the whole party’s health by converting everyone’s health to temp HP, but this definitely seems like it could be meaningfully reworked.

The Blightreaper could act as a pseudo-Grimoire/torch that gets passed around, cursing the player holding it but needing to be carried to the end. Rather than just being a simple debuff like a Grim or Nurgle’s Rot, it could leverage the idea that’s borrowed from Hysh, the Lore of Light, and its mechanic from the Winds of Magic: a curse that lowers health but also endows attack speed (or some buff). Rough explanation of how I imagine it working:

  1. Have the Blightreaper either occupy an equipment slot like a Grimoire or be a temporary weapon like the torch. It could either be a melee replacement for each class (3 people already have sword animations) or simply an item that we carry because we don’t want to wield it and risk corruption.
  2. The Blightreaper reduces max health but increases attack speed the longer you hold on to it, like the Hysh mechanic from the Weaves. Having it on your person saps your life away until you die.
  3. The Blightreaper could show up on the back of the person carrying it like the third-person equipment mod, when it’s not being held in their hands, to signify who is carrying the objective.
  4. The Blightreaper can be dropped like a Grimoire/torch to get rid of it and slowly recover from the life-drain mechanic (like standing near the totems in the Hysh weave).
  5. The Blightreaper will teleport to a random person if its wielder dies or it is dropped for a significant amount of time. It seeks to corrupt someone, and it is a magical cursed sword with its own will.

The idea itself seems crazy, but I like its simplicity for a couple reasons:

  1. It can introduce a unique mechanic to the DLC’s map pool, like previous V1 DLC’s had a theme or introduced unique objectives.

  2. It can leverage existing assets and mechanics for the Blightreaper. The sword’s 3D model, the stacking curse + buff concept from Hysh Weaves, and even the animation sets for the two-handed swords for Kerillian, Saltzpyre, and Kruber. That means unique third-person animations need to only be developed for Bardin and Sienna, if we were to hold the Blightreaper and not merely carry it.

  3. It introduces a mechanic briefly in one level that is then iterated on and greatly expanded in a subsequent level. This sword’s mechanic can be introduced at the end of Blightreaper for a bossfight, but then you are tasked with carrying the sword to destroy it in the third and final map. The end of one level is the tutorial for the next.

  4. Carrying the cursed item in much the same fashion as the One Ring means I can work in Lord of the Rings quotes when playing these maps. When I’m playing quickplay, I can tell new players in my game: “I can’t carry it for you, but I can carry you. Come on!” when we are working our way through the level to throw the sword in a volcano the runic forge where the sword was made, the only place it can be unmade.

Jeez, talking about this DLC that only exists in my mind has got me all hyped for something that probably will never happen. Ha… :frowning:

I disagree on only one point:

It’s literally impossible to NOT fight enemies during the escape sequence. They run faster then players can, and once spawned they will follow you until they die. Leaving by holding W is not an option. If you try, then whatever poor sap happens to be in the back WILL ALWAYS AND WITHOUT FAIL get caught by the horde. It’s true that you want to get to the pool as fast as possible so the spawns stop, but simply booking it and ignoring all foes is a guaranteed way to ensure you have to run back and rescue someone.

It’s not their fault for stopping to fight, since they have no choice other then dying. It’s the groups fault for not covering it’s rear.

This is probably a map design flaw of it’s own, actually.

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Yeah, I think it’s a bit of unintentional hyperbole on my part, my bad.

I think my issues with that particular section can be more accurately described as this:

  1. The debris, particle effects, and fairly dense hordes mean that it’s not particularly good or fun to fight in that cramped area because your FPS will often take a nosedive way below 60 fps, even on a good setup.

  2. The enemies dropping down from the roof are not always timed well such that they drop down in front of the entire group, meaning it’s very easy to get separated if some of your group has movement abilities while others do not: the enemies will completely miss the front people in the group and only slow down the last person in the pack.

  3. Getting stuck in a corner or caught on some of the environment will slow you down significantly, and you’ll sometimes get overwhelmed too fast for your group to notice you lagging behind.

You can usually get out fairly easily if everyone sticks together, one or two facing forward while the others shoot towards the rear with ranged weapons to thin out the chasing hordes while still staying well ahead of them. If you turn around to face enemies with melee, you’re just going to get surrounded because you stopped moving.

I think necessitating teamwork is a good thing for that section, but it’s usually an unpleasant experience in quickplay because someone will invariably dash ahead with some movement ability and trigger spawns that don’t attack them at all. It’s also usually very choppy to fight in, almost as bad as looking towards the center of the Pit’s main area.

I think shortening that section a tad and making it more of a straight shot instead of having several corners would alleviate some of the issues. When someone goes way far ahead and they finally notice you need help, they often can’t use their ranged weapons to help you in that hallway and you’re probably going to die before they can help you with melee.

Bögenhafen should have had one more map with a battle against a boss. We even have a painting where the monster appears. If new weapons are added, they would always be welcome. For me, the DLC only needs that.

I have also said many times adding more maps of V1 DLC “Back to Ubersreik” as Karak Azgaraz or Drachenfels.

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Yeah, i think bogenhafen deserve to get chaos demon boss fight
changing finale on blight reaper to chaos demon fight inside dimension that it creates would be really awesome

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image

Honestly, I thought of an extra funny bit to the boss fight when I was playing. If the boss is fighting you to take possession of the Blightreaper, perhaps the AI would aggro more on who is holding the sword. If he successfully downs or grabs/munches the person with the Blightreaper (or someone throws it on the ground and he gets to it), he’ll wield the sword in much more aggressive attack patterns and maybe get some health regen to accompany it. You’ll have to deal damage or stagger him significantly to force him to drop the sword and return the boss to a regular, beefier Chaos Spawn.

Essentially the boss becomes a game of monkey in the middle, where the monkey is a really pissed off Chaos Spawn that can grab the sword and bash you over the head with it.

You could even design achievements around the fight like:

Poetic Justice: Kill Blessed Baron Justus Francke with a final blow from the Blightreaper

Professional Keep Away Game: Kill Blessed Baron Justus Francke without him taking possession of the Blightreaper

Uncorruptible: Kill Blessed Baron Justus Francke without anyone in the party holding the Blightreaper for the entire duration of the fight.

Legendarily Uncorruptible: Kill Blessed Baron Justus Francke on Legend difficulty or higher without anyone in the party holding the Blightreaper for the entire duration of the fight.

I 100% agree going Back to Everywhere from the first game, except maybe Summoner’s Peak. I also wasn’t a huge fan of the “illusion” angle that they went with, or at least I just didn’t really like Olesya yelling at me for “going the wrong way, imbecile” every time I went to grab a damn Tome or Grimoire.

I think returns to those two settings should be with new story objectives or motivation. Maybe for Castle Drachenfels, we’re going in there to kill some Chaos Necromancer Lord that’s setting up shop, rather than just grabbing a few trinkets. You’d still be able to keep the areas mostly the same, but maybe we’re fighting a new boss in that Castle Drachenfels final hall instead of moving three gargoyles to the center.

Another insight from /u/Cuddlesthemighty on Reddit. Emphasis is my own addition.

They raise an issue with the randomness adding a fear factor to the map. The burning building escape isn’t half bad because it’s unpredictable which of the two routes you have to take. Pretty intense section of the map for sure, if the frame drops in that area weren’t as substantial.

With the docks finale, I made the joke of “pick up your Handmaiden that dashes off” but that truly only happens when someone is new to the map, since it’s always predetermined which tiles fall off and which wall the Chaos Warriors will break through to surround you. I think mixing up which part of the dock collapses, much like the collapses at the end of Festering Ground, would also go a long way in making that a lot more exciting.


As an aside, some other ideas:

Probably also mixing up the terror events, where sometimes they’ll come from behind and sometimes they’ll spawn ahead of you, would be beneficial as well. I don’t even know if a lot of people know about that Chaos Warrior breaking through the side wall on the docks because most people just hold W in that section and don’t look back.

If there was a potential boss spawn at the start of the docks that got triggered once you were halfway through, that would be rad. You could either high-tail it out of there, use a bomb/ult to knock him into the sea, or make your way to solid ground to fight him and claim another loot die. I think having this boss spawn be exclusive to Legend/Cata would be acceptable.

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I always felt the best thing to redo the Blightreaper map is to acquire it at the 25% mark maybe the 35% mark. Then you actually have to get it out of the city. Here is the fun part when you are caring the blightreaper you are absurdly strong, you just cut everything down with ease. The kicker is the sword talks to you and corrupts you overtime so you would need to hot potato it between the group. If a teammate holds it for too long they will die and turn into a Chaos Spawn that the party would then need to kill.

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Just want to say that there are loads of good suggestions here that I’d love to see put into the game. And a fight with the Beast of Bogenhafen feels like a must.

And for myself it don’t even need to be the monster on the art. It could be something river-related that happily kills both heroes and pact-sworn. Could be fun with something odd that we don’t see coming, until it right on top of us.

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About the Blightreaper being in the trophy room… it gets worse! Next dlc you get a dwarven luck stone, which has the power to bring luck, unless it gets corrupted, then it’s doom all the way (from its descrption in the trophy room). Guess where they put it.

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One of the things I previously suggested would be to put a loot dice in the sanctum at the end of Blightreaper. I noticed that people had a tendency to suicide at the start of boss levels like Skittergate and Nest, but everyone stopped doing that the moment bosses dropped extra dice.

IMO Blightreaper deserves an extra reward at the end because of it’s extreme length. It’s the only map I see people suicide at the start these days.

I mean, just adding an extra loot die would make the map more worth running, but it doesn’t make it more fun like adding a boss fight that drops a loot die (or two dice). Even then, it still takes longer than a lot of the other boss maps, why would I want to run Blightreaper for 1 die when I could run Skittergate for 5 dice or Halescourge for 2 dice?

The issues for Blightreaper aren’t just because it’s long and not worth running for loot, it’s also just kinda boring and slow to run for us people who don’t even care about loot.

At least with the Pit, I’ve actually had a lot more fun with it skipping the first Grimoire and one of the first tomes and choosing a random route to explore instead, but the Blightreaper doesn’t really have workarounds to avoid the long events.

Yeah the problem is the slowness of the events. Even if you have a good party that can kill hordes quickly you still need to wait for the portcullis to open.

Maybe they could just make the gate and the sanctum open faster and then intensify the enemy waves to match. That way you still get a challenge but you don’t have any “dead” time where everyone is just waiting for a door to open.

Oh goodie, I’ve had like 3 hosts today immediately Alt + F4 when they saw either the Pit or Blightreaper in quickplay. Hopefully Fatshark fixes these maps sooner rather than later, this crap’s getting annoying.

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