(Apparently) controversial opinion: The power difference between the heroes and skaven sides right now is in a relatively good spot for this type of game mode

Just to give an opinion I haven’t seen much on these boards so far: I don’t think the skaven side is far too weak right now. (Or in any case: Not nearly as much as most people feel it is judging by the general vibe of feedback so far.) Main reason I feel like this, is not because I think the skaven side is very strong. It’s clearly not. Rather, the reason I feel like the skaven side isn’t too weak is because I think this game mode works best specifically when one side is handicapped. Let me explain:

I don’t think the game would be better when rounds usually get decided in the first stretch because the skaven gank the heroes during the first event or something like that. Would be a waste of the rest of the map, and every round would feel repetitive real soon. I think the heroes usually “winning” - or at least finishing the map - is a good thing. It’s a lot more fun to “finish” your turn as either skaven or heroes with a “proper” round. What fun is a round that is over in minutes? Always over by the second event?! I feel the heroes being stronger is fully intended to ensure rounds feel like proper rounds instead of an exchange of a few blows.

To prevent all games from ending up in ties (which was not my experience playing the alpha so far, by the way!), I’d rather prefer that the scoring instead of the power difference between heroes and skaven gets an overhaul. Instead of only granting points for progression, I’d like to also see points rewarded for stuff like: damage dealth / taken, speed of completion, number of kills / downs, equipment used, etc… Because that way everybody gets equal time to play both sides, you get to enjoy the entire map / more diversity in gameplay, but a meaningful difference can still be made by superior gameplay. It would feel proper skaven-y to just throw numbers of yourselves to their deaths against the heroes for nothing but a small tactical advantage, and it is still fun to chip away some damage / buy some time with your ratty blood if you know that that rewards you points towards victory. Your many deaths as skaven wouldn’t feel so futile like they might feel now. And it’ll feel more fair if the team that cleared in 15 minutes beats the team that cleared the same map in 30 minutes, instead of that being counted as a draw.

This is all not to say that I don’t feel like no balance changes are warranted. Some talents on the hero side need adjustment / straight-up bans, health values might need some adjustments, etc., etc., but I think the general concept that the hero side has the advantage is actually a good thing, and the power difference between the sides needs not be adjusted by a lot.

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Yes, it feels very similar to L4D2 versus right now in the sense that the Skaven only have a chance to win against coordinated heroes IF the Skaven themselves coordinate their ambush well. That’s exactly how it should be in my opinion also. Game would be unfun more of the time if it was super hard for the average Vermintide player to even make it to the end of the first round as the Ubersreik 5.

Maaybe make health potions and medkits spawn less often. That’s the only balance change I’d make.

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Extremely disagree.
What’s the point of playing a pvp game when the enemy team is just getting a beat down? That’s boring as hell. I want them to put up a fight.
The most exhilarating and fun matches in any PVP games are the ones where you win by the skin of your teeth.

Though rather then buffing the rats, what i’d like to see is buffing the damn hordes. Its a horde game after all. Most of the rats completely didnt work because they only work when theres a horde. Like, how is a packmaster supposed to catch a hero when there’s no horde around? Making it completely useless. Or a globadier, sure we can block away a piece of the map from them, but what’s the point when they can just peacefully wait? Now if there was a horde around or the threat of a horde coming THEN it would be useful. this applies to pretty much every special.

The only actual rats i’d actually give a buff to would be the ratling. Playing as it felt completely worthless even when i was able to unload an entire magazine on the enemy hero i litearlly didnt deal any damage because it litearlly only deals 1 dmg per bullet the accuracy is so poor.

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But what you’d get if the skaven are roughly equal in power compared to the heroes is a completely different game. If the skaven have a very good chance to take out the heroes with nothing but good timing / teamwork, literally every round between roughly equally skilled players would end the same way: the skaven win the round within the first quarter of the map, since they’d only need to win a confrontation just once. Then the teams switch places, and it plays out with the same outcome. A map never gets finished to the end. Now that sounds boring to me.

I do agree with you that a game is much more fun if it’s decided “by the skin of your teeth”. But I feel like that feeling can still be achieved in a setting where both teams run the entire gauntlet, and the team that did it best gets the win. So that’s why I’m in favor of a score overhaul: Not just points for how far you come, but also for how well you managed to do it.

I think that it actually works really well if you have to play the skaven with a totally different mindset than when you play the heroes. Think of the specials you control not as characters, but rather like they’re a type of smart ammunition that you fire at the heroes repeatedly to achieve tactical goals and win in the end by attrition. Not only does that feel properly skaven-y, but it also is a nice variation from playing the heroes.

A game such as the one you are suggesting where the skaven are equal in power to the heroes could work, but in other settings. Like a “team deathmatch” kind of thing, or when it’s a succession of short scenarios which end in a victory for a side and then get reset. But such things wouldn’t feel very vermintide-y to me.

I think allowing Skaven players to spawn in as monsters should be enough. May be too late in the game’s lifespan for this, but a special copying the Boomer that’s vs exclusive so hordes aren’t so pathetic could help as well.

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I think the main issues revolve around nothing stopping/slowing the heroes from moving forward or making them (temporarily) vulnerable.

First issue is an easy fix, add more horde triggers/ more idle mobs / a special that can spawn a horde.

The second (IMO) is to adjust events/tasks that require more risk for the players to complete. (making them unable to defend themselves during this time). Think gas tank event during L4D, the player carrying the tank is fine, but when they decide to fill up the tank, it can take 5-10 seconds, leaving them vulnerable!
The events currently in V2V are risk-free, you just have to stand in an area or chuck a barrel. Too simple and risk-free. The King of the Hill section to blow up a wall is a perfect example. Rats dont even get close to that circle. The heroes need to be doing something instead of standing overwatch!

A solution already in the game is aiming a cannon during Fort Brachenbrucke.

This task would be nice for the heroes to carry cannon balls and shoot 2-3 targets. Holding the cannon to fire (which resets if not completed) would allow for a 4v3 rat situation. A temporary task leaving a hero vulnerable!

I disagree. Having matches end sooner because the rat team got the jump and coordinated should be a threat, its why you play versus. If you look at it from the other lens, finally breaking free and progressing further in a map will end up more rewarding/satisfying.

Think of it using your logic… if the heroes were able to get to the end every game wouldn’t it feel repetitive real soon? Where’s the challenge?

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To be honest I dislike stuff like the Borksenburger cannon and carrying around the cursed statue, because it takes one player out of the game doing nothing. It’s not fun being that player.

But the essence of our disagreement seems to be that I feel like it can still be an exciting match if both teams finish the map as the heroes, but the difference is decided by how efficiently and how well they did it. I think it will still be fun to play skaven even if you don’t wipe the team if you can manage to hamper them enough. Else it’s always an “all or nothing” situation: You either wipe the heroes, or your 100 deaths were in vain.

And I don’t think it would be repetitive if the map gets finished almost all the time. Finishing the map rarely seems more lame to me, because you hardly ever get the experience the whole map. But I do agree there should be some chance of the skaven wiping the heroes. It’s just that the current odds of that happening seem good enough to me.

Playing the objective doesn’t equal nothing. Heroes need an objective that turns their focus away from specials.

Doing well in Versus as the Skaven team means getting a stop, or killing a Hero.

You’re making my points for me! This is exactly why stopping the hero team is so fun.

@TmanDW I played against a group which was really organized.

I think it was a group of friends.

BUT as you know in Vermintide 2 you don’t play always with friends.

So there should be some way to organize…

Maybe you are right.