That or the previous post I was directly answering, I don’t know =p
Least you can admit your own ignorance on the subject
Ed: I guess not lol
Yeah, surely using arguments instead of personnal attacks would probably be interesting. But why do I wait for thoses things on internet.
I mean frankly, going “well some people have beat it so it’s not overtuned :^)” is a bit of a meme answer. Currently the map is pretty pointless for QP, in that it’s not hard enough most of the time to be worth doing as a challenge, but you also are pretty much guaranteed to lose books even if you beat the finale.
Arguing about specific wording is a bit weird, obviously he didn’t mean it’s literally impossible.
Whether the issue is inherent to QP or not isn’t that relevant, considering QP is how most people play. There’s lots of challenge stuff out there for premades.
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I think we have to make some distinctions.
Nurgloth is too hard? Too easy? Balanced? This can be considered pretty subjective.
But we can’t say that the last phase doesn’t need a rework.
If you can take some unavoidable damage (fall into an orange zone while it’s exploding, be hit while you are in midair), there is a problem.
P.s also the 10 Chaos Warriors don’t seem so necessary.
You have to just give time to let the community develop itself, they are surely monitoring it closely, and i wouldn’t worry. if it’s overtuned, changes will come.
Personally have no issue with it being harder then other boss maps, surely on cata i don’t. Even tho i don’t play legend alot anymore, i am still against making legend events easier as i still want legend to be a challenge and not super accessible, and i’m also a bit scared that if nerfs to legend come, cata will be next or things get nerfed overall. (I know loot is a big issue and thats why legend ‘should’ be accesible to reduce the grind, but that can be fixed without nerfing difficulties)
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I don’t think anyone want him to be nerfed to the point of Spinemanglr burst-damage-to-death-in-seconds.
I think it is only one RNG element of the final phase needs changing. I have run so many QP Legend games and cruised through right up to the third phase then wipe, due to being bounced around - sometimes so high I bounce off the ceiling - or not being able to res, or getting swiped into the air and then thumped by everything as I fly past.
Personally, I would like the orange floor to be changed. Maybe Nurgloth needs to stop for 1-3 seconds to summon the burst(like he does in all earlier phases) before he continues to pursue whoever has agro. Just a tiny bit more breathing space in that final phase.
[edit] I’m sure FS are watching, and actually it’s a pretty tough decision to decide what to adjust. I hope it’s in the next patch, alongside our shiny new frame. Spinemanglr might be a good cautionary tale too. He used to be damn hard, with players even resing outside of the arena. If I had the inkling I could probably find a thread very simi8lar to this one bemoaning Spinemanglr’s ending.
I don’t disagree changes will come eventually, it’s just the question of when that bothers me lol.
I’d agree if it was a challenge map overall, but it’s not really, it’s just the last phase of his fight that’s a huge leap in difficulty. You’d keep pretty much the entire map the same.
It’s kinda the same discussion we had about events in general. The leap of difficulty, if they exists, should be provided during maps (by various situation) with the help of the AI Director, rather than end events, which comes after 30 mn of focused teams already.
It could be a leap of difficulty, if you didn’t lose EVERYTHING for a failed map (including challenges & quests done).
A map doesn’t take 30 minutes + end event.
About the end events being harder, you already know my opinion of that, which i clearly explained in plenty of ‘end event’ threads.
Same ^
And same as the discussion for end event in general I have to wonder how bad the situation really is. For example in regards to CoD, I specifically watched out for this map. And to personal experience at least 70-80 % of PUGS who reach the final are also completing it. Granted, only personal experience (but FS has the real numbers). But we all should keep in mind that one of the reasons FS is not making ending events easier may be that the completion rates are not as bad as some people claim (remember: there was at least one person who said the map can’t be PUGGED at all which is factually wrong and easily provable).
Same can be said for Nurgloth. Up to Champion I would be surprised if the failure rates there are really that much higher than for other maps. Starting with Legend it can become difficult. But even on Legend I would say that the map can be pugged independent from group composition. Even with four tanks the fight can be won with average difficulty. With Cataclysm then, it becomes more brutal and you wish to have certain classes with you like a Mercenary or Huntsman for example. But Cataclysm is meant to be brutal so that’s that.
Even if the Nurgloth stats are miserably we also have to consider what FS’s goal is (which we can only speculate). My personal guess is that the Drachenfels campaign is meant to be significantly harder than the main campaign (remember that Old Haunts end event has been made harder). And if FS decides that for WHATEVER reasons the completion rates for Nurgloth shall be 30 %/10 % (I do think they are far higher though) than this is also acceptable.
That said, I agree that it might cause some problems, namely map skipping. However we should talk about how to avoid this phenomena. And there are solutions different from just outright nerfing Nurgloth. The first one is to reduce the probability of the map appearing in quickplay. But it isn’t ideal. The second one is making the map more attractive, speak increasing the reward like we have seen for Skittergate. Nurgloth already drops 4 loot dices, more than anyone else (Rasknitt and Deathrattler only reach this value as combination). Personally, I am not against Nurgloth dropping even 8 loot dices. Would be okay with me.
However, long term I think it is more effective if we would get a map dependent quickplay bonus and quickplay bonus other than just a bar increase for Ranald’s gift. In case of Nurgloth for example the quickplay bonus could be a second chest of equal rarity. So the map would be higher risk, higher reward. That are actual solutions worth discussing instead of nerfing events.
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Yeah, but again, that doesn’t REALLY MEAN 100% impossible. No need to play on words here.
There’s a thing here, we’re all players with thousand hours of play that do play the challenging stuff of the game. Did weaves season 1 and 2 despite me considering that I’m an “average” player. We don’t really share the same “average”-ness than our most common players. We’re really above them, in a very factual way, we do play better than them. Better than the average legend players you usually play with when you’re with random players.
It’s not too say they’re bad, they’re usually not. But they’re not on the same level.
Cataclysm can be whatever they needs it to be. I don’t care about difficulty in a game “mode” that’s not fit for QP (and was announced as that when we actually asked about QP). Therefore Cataclysm is a specific mode tailor made for premade teams that want to challenges themselves, and I’m okay with this because it was made clear by the devs (that cata isn’t tailored around QP). So no wonder why QP is kinda desert in this mode.
If FS decide the completion rate should be 1%, acceptable or not, this is their decision and this is their game. That does not mean we should not discuss of the “issue”.
You bet so.
Doesn’t reduce the map skipping of the specific map. That just reduce the global map skipping.
Well, this will have limits. Even if let’s say Fortunes of War dropped a legendary vault, each time you complete it. Would it be something you’ll run a lot ?
Nerfing events is ALSO an actual solution. Not the solution that you seek for, I do understand. But that doesn’t mean it won’t solve the issue.
Preventing the map to appear in QP at all would also solve the issue though (kinda your solution to reduce the probability of getting it, but to 0, so it’s not QP anymore, so you can choose your team wisely before going for it).
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It isn’t a play on word though. The comment is there to emphasis that people are becrying a problem which very well may not even exist (and in case of CoD I heavily assume it doesn’t even exist).
I am specifically talking about completion rates in public games. How much more “average” do you want to have? I don’t have premade teams, never had and probably never will have. All my comments are from the perspective of someone continuously playing with randoms with the exception of one Steam friend I play with occasionally.
So you agree that Cataclysm shouldn’t be touched and your emphasis is on Legend?
Discussing is okay. But when some people start screaming that every map should have x% completion rate I just wanted to bring out the argument before hand.
It has to be discussed, I agree with it. I haven’t experienced it personally on that map yet. I have seen it in the past on Blightreaper and Skittergate. But at least in my experience it is not an issue on any map nowadays, including Enchanter’s Lair. Nonetheless, it should be discussed.
As I said, it isn’t an ideal solution. And there is a chance that the map will be played if it becomes rarer although it has a higher failure rate because it makes the map more special.
And if FoW dropped 5 Legendary Vaults? Or a 100 % guarantee on a Red Weapon if beating it on Cataclysm? The limits are only what FS is willing to give away. As we are discussing and speculating at the moment, there are no limits.
It is, but in my opinion it is the worst possible solution other than taking it out of QP completely. And i specifically mentioned that changing its appearance numbers is not an ideal solution.
The past (Skittergate) has shown that just by increasing the reward people ARE willing to play and that map skipping can be stopped nearly completely. The same past has also shown that Skittergate (which has not received a nerf) magically reached higher completion rates after the change. Which again shows the point that the problem is most often people not yet being accustomed (or worse not willing to get accustomed) to certain maps. And yes, these processes can take up several months, even somewhere from 6 to 12.
As emphasized in the topic about end game events that I wrote (which adressed the average difficulty of legends game events), cataclysm could be not touched at all (I do have a specific issue with CoD cata for the specific map challenge, but that’s kinda all).
Without screaming, I do think that maps should kinda be on a same “average difficulty”. I can though, have some “campaign” that are on a different “average difficulty” as you pointed out as a possible cause. But they should, therefore, up the reward a little. This is probably a redundant issue with Fatshark to not touch rewards even for more difficult stuff 
(looking at you Cata vaults).
I did the experience a few times. But I do not have the stats (not sure if that specific stat can be tracked by FS if the host choose to leave rather than suicide).
It’s a very long map with less margin than the others. Not sure it can become “the farmable map”. Maybe for a 100% guaranteed red weapon, maybe, but certainly not in Cata then (I mean, cata able players have them all so it should be a huge amount of shillings or a hat, something that cata able players do not have yet).
To be honest I still see qp players not wanting to do this map.
Well, we don’t share the same opinion obviously. I think there’s a fine line between “nerfing a bit the third phase” and “The boss is OS by BH in 3 seconds, looking at you Skarrik”.
Giggles, I’m mocking Froh’s sentiment of ‘I can’t beat it it’s impossible’ because it’s sloppy, lazy rhetoric, utterly pointless. I am making the equal, opposite statement he is making…wonder why mine, not Froh’s, is noteworthy to you.
I’m not arguing specific wording, Froh said I don’t QP, I said he didn’t know what he was talking about.
Now back Nurgloth: This fight feels very different compared to its release. It is less challenging now but feels disjointed. At release the first 2 stages prepped players for the final stage with the final stage adding elites and Nurg going Berserk. Now the first two stages feel like nothing like the final stage; there is no sense of escalation and the AoE changes behavior. It sets constants to immediately subvert them.
There are multiple ways to address this: set AoE to consistent in all 3 waves with Elites only in the 2nd(or 2nd and 3rd). Alternatively switch to 4 waves(split Nurg and elites). Infinite waves(like BlurpleButt).
I really don’t think it’s too difficult. I think the pacing is crap and the lack of escalation sets people up for failure