A useful scoreboard would be valuable

I used to be against the scoreboard, but after some consideration I think there is value in it if it is done well. VT2 board is not great for personal improvement, but I think we could create a better one. Here is a refined idea from what I had in another thread.

For the board to be actually useful, it should display aggregate values that represent the gameplay loop. The board should be an indicator of performance and it should automatically inform the player on where to improve. To reach these goals, it would display:

Offensive Score
Defensive Score
Team play Score
Total Score

Team’s total score for each section and the total would be 1000 and personal score would be a fraction of it, based on their performance. A player could for example receive:

Offensive Score: 295
Defensive Score: 235
Team play Score: 245
Total Score: 258

If a player received a total score between 200 and 300, they would know they are pulling their weight in a match. Less than 200 would mean they should try to improve a bit or lower the difficulty. More than 300 would mean they should move to a higher difficulty, if possible, since they are carrying. The game would inform the player of this in Hints-section of the board.

Each score component would be calculated as: PersonalResult / TeamTotal * 1000. The aggregate would be calculated as ComponentsTotal / ComponentsCount. Then we would end up with a score board like above. Component scores would be displayed in a tooltip, when an aggregate score is hovered over. The tooltip could also show raw data along the component scores (kills, damage, etc.) if it fits.

Tooltip could look like:
Mob Damage: 315 (4145)
Monster Damage: 204 (340)
Kills: 276 (213)
Specials: 225 (13)
Elites: 266 (10)
Headshots: 240 (95)

The components could be:
Offensive: mob/monster damage, kills, specials, elites, head shots, etc.
Defensive: damage blocked per damage taken, mob/monster aggro (time being targeted), staggers, melee/ranged dodges per melee/ranged damage taken, etc.
Team: time spent in coherence, saves, revives, time alive when a player is downed, time spent carrying objectives, special objectives found/carried, etc.

The game could then fairly easily inform an underperforming player on how to improve, if a component score is below 150. Hints -section could display useful information like “Try to engage enemies more” or “Try to stay with the team” or “Try to dodge more in melee”.

Finally: Mourningstar could have an Adeptus Administratum scribe, who displays long term player statistics.

Note: I would not expect a scoreboard like this any time soon, but I would imagine that at least some of the VT2 board-opposers (like me) could get behind a useful board like this.

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Decided to replay here instead because i want to see this at the top, so that fatshark and everyone can see it.

This is an amazing idea. It does everything we discussed and came together on in the other forum, and i personally would love to see this implemented.

It does exactly what those that want a scoreboard wants, and also knocks the green circle chasers down a peg. It is tailored to contribution across the board, and would help limit any toxcity that arises while not only giving people a way to see how well they did, but also a way to see how the can improve.

This should be the scoreboard of Darktide.

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Thanks!

I agree. For those concerned, there would still be some personal glory left when you could see your score above the team average. Being a grand average of many things though (including staying with the team) would mean that safer playstyles would be recognized a bit as well.

I would like the scores to be private, so the focus is on personal performance instead of public comparison. I suppose it does not ultimately matter so much if everyone saw each others’ results, since an aggregated total would take into account as much of the game play as is relevant and possible.

Skilled players would of course always shine in the results, as they must. For those that would score beyond 400 (the ring chasers) the game would be there to remind them that a higher difficulty might be more appropriate for them.

This is what I would like most about the board. Sure there is score variation from mission to mission, but if a player consistently receives a hint to “dodge more in melee”, it might encourage some to perform better in the future. The hints-system would be so easy to automate too, since it would all be based on numeric break-points.

Mourningstar’s potential scribe’s long time averages could add a powerful layer to follow our performance, since it could categorize our accomplishments based on difficulty, class and map. Then we could REALLY see what we need to practice more :slight_smile:

What problem are you trying to address with this, exactly?

There’s one main issue with a scoreboard system that calculates rather than tracks.

It assumes that the people figuring out what the calculations should be know the optimal way to play the game AND that most people will generally play that way.

I think that’s a shaky assumption in any game. Players are very good at figuring out ways to play that are outside what the developers envision.

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I am trying to address the issue of a number of players really disliking VT2 scoreboard. Let’s face it: that board is mostly there to glorify the best killer with green rings and it is a very poor tool for helping improve player performance.

The raw numbers (kills, elites, etc.) alone are not a very good indicator of how well one played, especially when a very limited pool of things are tracked. Individual values depend on spawns and the map itself, so you can not really create apples-to-apples comparisons or get meaningful knowledge from a raw-data-board.

Aggregate scores with reference-points would be much more suitable for the task, since with those you could actually tell how well you did in the team. It is also much easier to compare this match and the previous one, when you can do that with meaningful total scores.

Here is the kicker though: the suggested new board would try to meaningfully track as much of the intended gameplay loop as possible, so you could not arbitrarily boost the score by simply exploiting a glitch and killing a million enemies. Again, everything would be weighed equally within score components, so you could only get a high score if you did well in all categories.

A really good player who stays with the team, helps with objectives, hardly gets hit and kills a lot would obviously get a high score. And that would a good thing, since that is the way the game is meant to be played.

Ok, well there’s a bunch of threads on the old scoreboard, so all I’ll say to that here is that I don’t agree with your assessment that it’s poor for improving personal performance.

That’s what I’m getting at: The intended gameplay loop probably won’t be the most optimal way to play the game. It almost never is.

There’s too many factors that can influence how people play the game, and the calculations would need to be constantly adjusted to keep up with them - Balance for example. Does it push players to play in a way that supports the calculations?

I don’t disagree that there might be a better way to do a scoreboard, I just don’t know if this is it. Seems like a lot of ongoing work for fairly unreliable results.

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I mean, you can have any form of scoreboard you want, it will still be pointless.

Yours specific is basically just telling people to use allrounder builds and stay with the team, which isnt bad, but also learned through gameplay. I still wouldnt see a reason to look at it but rather skip it for the next run.

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What we need is a scoreboard from Vermintide 2. It showed the exact areas where you needed to improve so not sure why you say it’s not useful.

What you’re proposing is a high level performance score board that gives you numbers but doesn’t give you the exact specifics so it’s impossible to compare with someone else playing the same character. Also, a lot of tooltip options you mentioned you just have no impact on.

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It would give specifics. The tooltips would include component data and it would have the raw values in parentheses. All those specific values you want would be visible when the aggregate score was hovered over (with a mouse). You would have every single result that VT2 board currently shows at your disposal.

Mind you, this is mostly a mechanics-idea. The component data could just as well be found in the main board itself and the aggregate scores would just be bolded in bigger font. If I have time next week, I might cook up an image to show how I imagine the new board visually.

Every score would depend on your play. If you stay with the team and provide them your cohesion bonus, you would get a higher team score. If you manage to engage enemies and take little damage while fighting them, you would get a higher defensive score. If you manage to deal lots of damage, you would get a higher offensive score. And so on.

All the scores would be averaged together to give a final score, which would indicate your overall performance. Aggregated scores are much better if you want to compare yourself to others in your class, since they eliminate most of the randomness that map types and spawns generate. 400 kills could be great on one map and 500 kills could be bad on another. A proper score would eliminate variation and tell you the true result.

Could you elaborate on this? I found VT2 board quite bad, since it told me no useful information or easily comparable performance scores. It just has the raw numbers of damages and various kills. The new board would still show you all that and so much more.

Just bring back the V2 style scoreboard.

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I’m all for scoreboards, I’d like V2 to have a scoreboard with accurate information.
The one that we have often has inaccurate info also you’re forced to look at it for at least 10 seconds. Ten seconds does not seem like much, but I’ve got thousands of runs, which gives like hours of downtime.
The problem of V2 is that you waste at least 1 minute of your life on the post run summary (xp, prize, scoreboard).
This is a major design flaw and it should be optional.
Like you run around your hub and you can see some scoreboard which measures your last run - it’s a good conversation piece with your teammates as you choose your next map.

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Agreed scoreboard is a core feature and should be implemented in some way. Make it a toggle feature and call it a day.

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Scooooreboard.

I have never understood why there is any pushback for a scoreboard in a video game. Giving us data does not make us toxic. Nor does it make us play a certain way just to chase numbers. In a few hundred hours of VT2 playing up to the maximum difficulty setting, I can’t recall anyone “farming kills” to inflate their #'s or running someone down for not getting enough kills at the end of a successful mission. For that matter, given that the scoreboard only shows up at the end of the mission and if you made it through the mission, why would anyone be complaining at that point?

I can make excuses for the game not yet having the crafting system, I can deal with some of the crash issues as long as I know FS is working on it (and we got a hotfix today, so thank you for that). I still have been promoting the game, bought it for a friend, and have gone out of my way to support the game. But the lack of a scoreboard at launch is just mind blowing to me and the more I think about it, the more annoyed I get.

VT2’s scoreboard was a good starting point; bring it back and if you want to give us additional metrics that we can consider to try and improve our play. But not showing us how we did relative to everyone else in the group is unacceptable. Data after a mission does not make people toxic; stop acting like it does.

Then maybe do not think about it so much lmao :crazy_face:

If you failed the mission, more than likely you already know the reason for it. Paying even cursory attention to your team easily tells you the weakest and strongest links in the team.

If you are honest to yourself, you can also easily tell where your own failings and miscalculations were.

I would definitely not go that far. As I laid out in my post, raw numbers tell very little of a player’s true performance. More on that below.

If you are a Shieldgryn who positions well, draws aggro well, crowd-controls enemies well, tags every single special and kills enemies when it makes sense, your numbers on a raw value board may be atrocious. Still, you may have in fact been the strongest player towards a successful mission.

If raw damage and kill-values on a board time and again indicate that you were the bottom trash of the team, a player might be inclined to spend less time on all of the above and try to get some more kills, even if it just wastes health, wastes time and risks mission completion. Only so that when the match ends, it does not look to others in the public team that you “sucked”.

Only when the tracked numbers are very broad and they are aggregated (preferably over a long period) can you truly gauge useful information about your gameplay. There is too much variation in single raw values to tell you anything useful.

Also, the conclusions a player might draw from raw values on how to improve their play could well be completely wrong, actually making them a worse player. This is what happened in the Ogryn example above.

Then you just have to shelf the game for the time being. We will probably have to wait well into 2023 before they even make a devpost about a board.