A Modest Legend Tier List

@AkitaInu Except a patrol dropping on you is something normal that every effective team deals with without needing a clutch… Though it would be harder with HM, yes, as WS/shade both shred patrols significantly better. If your answer to challenges is to have a class around just to solo run to everyone’s corpses, you’re creating the problem you’re trying to solve. This is another area where even a RV is vastly superior, because not only can he also run through a level naked and alone, he trivializes patrols and the like via non-stop supply of bombs. Should a team have an answer to an unexpected patrol? Yes, obviously. Is it effective for the answer to be failure, followed by kiting and rev? No. Same applies to every situation to which some people pretend HM is an effective response.

@Hyrrok that’s totally fair. I’ll never tell people they can’t have fun playing HM. I hope people always play what they enjoy the most, regardless of what others think.

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@Avar No, you misunderstood me. I’m not saying that patrols are the only problem and I was speaking about patrols that spawn on top of your head, not the ones in the distance, although I agree that ranger veteran helps to deal with them.
The problem is that here isn’t a single team composition that can take care of the games bugs or inconsistencies and that’s why you have to be able to survive on your own. You’re saying that the Handmaiden is bad because you will be the only one to survive a clutch and then there is a high chance that you will get pounced by an assassin before you can revive your other teammates. You know what would be better? If everybody took classes that can survive on their own when things go sour. Instead people take Waystalkers, Pyromancers, Ironbreakers and Bounty hunters to chase the green circles. Being able to get the most kills doesn’t mean that you’re contributing the most. This is the kind of mentality which leads to so many bad players in legend who blame others after getting defeated because they had the most green circles including damage taken.

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No, I was taking about unexpected patrols.

All of the classes you listed survive on their own just fine. The only difference with HM is that anyone with a pulse can run around a level forever with zero risk to themselves with a very low skill requirement. The maximum mobility buff achievable in VT1 was 5% mvmt speed yet even without that, every character could still “clutch” perfectly fine. Skilled players still clutch in VT2 all the same without the need to be a bad DPS with a mobility kit.

Wasn’t suggesting the HM would be disabled. If that’s a remote possibility for the HM, there’s a major skill gap at play. The issue is that unlike both shade and RV, HM drags everything and the kitchen sink along with her when she revives people, then she uses her cheesy mobility to bugger off to the next person while the newly revived character is completely surrounded and taking hits before the game lets them put block up. It happens most of the time. The only situations HM clutches are clean scenarios where any other class would have been able to do it better by virtue of actually having lethality. And this is the thing she’s supposedly good at. Factor in how 3s invis on ult will get teammates backstabbed and it really brings it home that HM is simply not a team-oriented class.

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Harsh : D

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I think you are confused about the first game. You couldn’t clutch perfectly just fine in the first game without specific loadouts. Meta was 1h and dual weapons + seal of the swiftstrider but not for the reason you mentioned it. +movement speed barely contributed to anything but it also gave you an ability to dodge endlessly which was considered the best in the entire game. Shields and 2h were unviable for clutches and almost impossible to pull off.

Of course you can survive most encounters with any class but if you need to be more skilled than j_sat to pull it off with a class like Waystalker then maybe it’s not worth it and you should just take something that is more suited for the job.

I think most people don’t realize that after you revive somebody you have to do a few pushes to keep the person alive while he rises up.

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I think the problem with HM is that people think that running away from enemies/kiting while solo is the only value to her kit. The dash is also an extremely short CD way of getting the space needed to snipe a special when you are overrun with a horde or elites. And you can arguably frontline a horde of rats better with her than with IB (short of his ult) due to push attacks with the spear. Her 15% bonus hero power helps her very easily hit many breakpoints as well (at the cost of 5% attack speed, but that is a low reduction). Most classes only get such boosts temporarily or with much stiffer penalties. She’s not a bad damage dealer, but she isn’t a massive burst one, either, like Shade or Bounty Hunter. She’s above-average in all respects, and that’s actually pretty useful to complement a team, especially with her buff that is very useful for characters that use push-attacks a lot (and while, yes, it has a short range, in many situations you are that close to your team mates, like during hordes when the extra stam regen is most useful).

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IB: amazing horde waveclear. Ulti can save living teammates while taunting and creating space when cast while he himself is extremely durable

FK: damage resistance aura (admittedly small radius that needs major buff) w +1 shield for team and low cool down cc ulti that can perma stun bosses or create space for teammates/get to downed teammates with ease.

Zealot? Unchained?: both are the tankiest of their character careers but both are still pseudo dps classes. Unchained ulti can create space for teammates or to cc as she resses.

HM: a stamina Regen aura. This is something that is wasted 90% of the time as most players don’t sit around stamina starved. Outside of this her utility to team is nil while they are all alive.

I don’t think all tanks are useless. A good IB on a team that can effectively neutralize his weakest area of special killing from range (assuming cannon or pistols) is an invaluable asset. I DO think a tank career that kills specials worse than her ranged career subclass and kills elites and bosses worse than her melee career subclass without really succeeding in some way those two classes fail (other than to be able to live longer when everything goes downhill) is LESS USEFUL hence her tier.

As a disclaimer I think HM is a fun class and I have had many very solid HM players on my team clutch runs and contribute to the success of the team.

All careers are viable in the hands of a skilled player. For example, I’ve been pleasantly surprised by the utility of battle wizard with conflagration staff. It’s extremely tactile to redirect hordes, perma stun patrols and stagger elites. Special and boss killing is a relative weak point. While her ability to block until ventilate for a very rapid sequence full charge conflagration attack is very strong. Her ulti gives her an easy out and can be aimed at a down teammate to cc what killed them for a res. (Hold F down then aim the circle where you want to go don’t just press it)

I had to comment here because or how false this is. The IB cannon is far superior to push attacking with the spear as it hits everything and doesn’t cap at damage to 4 targets and damages / staggers elites. In addition the spear (which you absolutely should not be using in champion or legend as it is complete garbage vs armor and is totally outclassed by the glaive) only dampens her already dampened lackluster lethality while increasing her ability to kite and push attack endlessly(read: improves her ability to do solo speed runs). This weapon only helps to foster the HM playstyle that is detrimental to the team to begin with.

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You definitely want zealot with flail in your legend/heavy-arm-deed run which is the only melee weapon to quickly melt multiple armored enemies. I prefer crossbow to quickly take out multiple specials.

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Plus the Flail ignores Shields and has a high crit Chance.

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I personally am a major fan of a lot of the usually “underpowered” classes.
WHC i find by far the most fun of the saltz ones, one-shotting SV and just being able to block powerful attacks from the front, while looking good nonetheless. Sure i can see why he is considered weaker, but i would say he is still fairly decent, with his main disadvantage being low HP and long cooldown.
HM on the other hand, i really don’t get why people dislike her. With the glaive, she is an absolute melee-blender. You never have to stop doing push-stabs, which have a considerably speed boost over regular swings and her dash provides her with the mobility to quickly rez or assisst teammates in trouble. As Kruber, i absolutely adore her stamina aura. Makes you much more potent vs armor and means you don’t have to wait forever after tanking a overhead for you to be useful vs armor again.
BW i am somewhat conflicted on, her tranquility passive just… never really matters when it needs to. It takes far too long to kick in and is too easily reset. But at the same time, her ult is something i think is a lot more valuable than one might think, it really helps you get out of sticky situations and bring your staff to bear so you can deal with the enemies that were just surrounding you.

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She’s a watered down shade, Who rarely runs out of stamina (and if you’re having issues you can take talents or trinket to compensate) as is.

You get 10% more attack speed, backstab talent and a relatively low cd that deletes CW and boss hp as well as higher base crit and repeater crossbow access at the cost of 15% power and a lame dash.

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Are you sure about crit? I see no mention of this on the passives.

I don’t see how shade can in any way compete with her horde clear though. Even with the stamina talent and trinket it takes much longer for her to regen and she in no way can sustain push-stabbing indefinitely like HM (which is much faster than 10% more AS).

You really don’t like hm right? She’s a total beast, but you need to know how to use her I guess…

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Not really man. Especially when it takes up 1/3rd of your character customization options and all it does is allow unlimited consecutive dodging. You can still perform limitless dodges with <1s delay in between w/o it. It was more of an unnecessary crutch or something for true solo. Everyone clutches w/o that w w/e they’ve got on.

Surviving alone isn’t some herculean feat… Also, your argument now is that WW in V1 is a kite-machine but suddenly WS, which is essentially identical, can’t.

If someone can only clutch with HM there’s a major skill gap.

@Monkey L O Lno

@Sasa shade has repeater xbow

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You’re correct about the Drakegun, but I was particularly referring to melee - you’re not always able to bring the Drakegun to bear and charged in time. Bad on me for not making that clear, though.

I don’t think the spear inherently contributes to a “detrimental” playstyle, though. It isn’t great against armor, but it does work, and fulfills a specific role. Glaive is overall better, of course, but the spear is a versatility weapon in case you want her to be a frontline tank. With a Glaive, she’s a highly-mobile murder machine, who can hit good breakpoints better with her +15% hero talent who is STILL reasonably tanky.

EVERY balance post seems to be watered down to ‘’ HM is shiiiiit ‘’ : s

When in reality she’s got some limitations that you can play around, but people choose not to ¯_(ツ)_/¯

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In a situation where me (as HM) with 3 other players fought a Chaos Spawn, and those 3 went down, leading me to dodge-tank the Spawn and run off and res all 3…

All 3 of them would still have died otherwise…leaving me with a char who probably also would have died or at the very least wouldn’t have been able to solo the Spawn.

Instead I got everyone back up and we killed the Spawn.

If I’d brought the WS or Shade…probably gg.

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I appreciate the effort you put into this list, but the top two are only there because of damage cap removal and an exploit. Wouldn’t surprise me if both get nerfd into the ground. Huntsman will be fixed for sure, shade may not because it isn’t an exploit and takes some skill.

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While i generally agree that HM isn’t useless (i main her on keri), i think in this situation, a shade could definitely have prevented the wipe by taking out the spawn much more quickly

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