So, more enemies, more damage, more health, resistance to crowd control. Doesn’t seem so outrageous.
Imo it’s pretty ok. Challenging for a pug team.
Please do not twist my words. I never mentioned their numbers or health. I mentioned damage increase, but not universal - only charged attacks of regulars. And resistant to crowd control, yes, only of marauders and only to certain weapons. They’re pretty much unstaggerable with most weapons. But yet that’s a weapon balance problem.
And about being outrageos… well, it depends on the numbers. You list those things like that’s nothing, but if you sum up the effect might be devastating.
These were Closed Test nerfs before release. Apologies for any confusion
I would add melee damage vs bosses. If anyone runs monster killing it’s for a ranged build. With the exception of shade, which isn’t BH, Pyro or Huntsman so can do less damage than all 3 if tunneled. There are no boss specific melee weapons and fighting bosses with only melee is a nightmare. If you’re missing 1-2 players and have no range trolls are nearly invincible.
Secondly, having no punch through or cleave on armour is actually starting to feel awful. Getting hit by small enemies while the armoured enemy is staggered or not swinging is so irritating.
Lastly, SPRINTING ATTACKS. You can stagger 8 enemies and one will come sprinting through from behind them all and smack you in the face instantly.
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Thanks for the refiniment. Btw, yes, a halberd-armed Kruber can still deal with any number of Stormvermin. They’re unpushable now, but are still completely prone to Halberd stagger.
agree with the melee against bosses, only the shade does a crazy amount of damage that agrees with the risk involved in engaging a boss at melee range, and she needs someone to grab aggro so she can do her dirty work. even the slayer without a str pot isn’t pulling the crazy boss dps that a beam pyro, huntsman, bh, or hagbane can push out with sustained fire. it’s kinda sad that for boss fights, i feel the risk-reward for melee just isn’t there (except for shade).
no cleave and no armor pen on smaller weapons is terrible for higher difficulties for most classes. they need to work on the system to allow more builds that can stagger or armor punchthrough. on any legend run there is a terrific amount of stormvermin and chaos warriors, which renders most of the lighter weapons less effective than the heavy ones.
in vt1 stagger and cleave was a set value for each weapon and wasn’t tied to any sort of power, which was a good system. decoupling those from the power system would be a step in the right direction imo. for example if a 1h sword heavy attack staggers a mauler, it should consistently stagger in all difficulties rather than have it change based on the power or difficulty level. the game mechanics should remain the same, instead of having to relearn how weapons work in different difficulties at max power.
sprinting attacks - well this one i agree with the combat system, gotta hold block after a push if you see an attack coming through, or cancel your attack if you see it coming. these attacks are needed because if not, players would be able to kite enemies really easily by running away and dodging backwards when the enemy starts to swing - with a lunging attack some enemies still can poke you especially if you don’t have much dodge. it’s good stuff imo, makes melee more interesting.
The elefant is that 1025 damage taken. I had regular legend runs with 260-480 damage taken, but with 2 grims in mind, those games were constant struggle to survive in 1 hit from death range. And considering ease with wich you could catch 1 random hit… Shade has 100 base hp, let’s say 50-60 with curse resistance (getting 33% is a pain, but that’s a different conversation), meaning you are always near dead. Why would you want to risk meele in this case?
If you have same skill players with say BH+Pyro (or +WS) doing the same dual run, damage taken numbers would be two times less. And that’s a big deal.
We actually had one grim and neither of us had curse resist so its really close to the amount u’d have with 2grims and 33% curse resist. Anyway, the dmg taken comes from taking hits in hordes and instantly filling it with temp hp which you can easily do as shade with double grim aswell, since in hordes enemies do way less dmg than lone enemies would do. Another thing with duos is that you have so much healing in the map that you can play really aggressively because you can waste healing every other corner. When you have played enough to have good awareness its not risky at all to go to melee and you also learn to know when you can take hits to increase ur dps.
Also dmg taken as a stat doesn’t really tell you much if you haven’t seen the game because you could easily have 300 dmg taken but you went down twice which would inflate the stat. I can’t remember if we went down on that game, though. I could check from my recordings but I don’t think the dmg taken is relevant here at all.
Can’t agree on that one. This is a part of the game, that makes it fun. Without armored foes the game would be a boring leftclick simulator.
Agreed. Though why 8?
The main problem with bosses is that they constantly run away from your or push you (usually the do both in one move). And you can’t recklessly melee them when they’re staggered, since they can get up any moment and ista hit you.
But I don’t think this one kills melee combat. Bosses are rare and can be dealt with at range.
Agreed, I also don’t like this design that much. But as soon as you hit 600 it doesn’t matter, so this is also irrelevant to the topic.
Yeah, but some enemies lunge you when you approach them or they approach you. And there is no counter to that. Otherwise lunging is perfectly fine.
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There is a big problem with temp HP. If you play with say BH with volley, you jump in front but sideways, so he can provide fire support, which is the smart thing to do, how much temp HP you would get? With dual swords it’s next to none. You just can’t out dps him to get grey hp you need, much more than he does btw.
Overall, I found that ‘conservative’ meele game is underwhelming. You can’t risk taking hits at all. Which means, your damage output is significantly lower. Which means you can’t clear hordes and roamers fast. Which means you’re getting more hordes and specials. It will result in having worse damage/healing available ratio. Which often is enough to screw you. And if you look at ranged dominant careers - they basically cheat in resourse game, and have no risk involved into their damage output.
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Most melee careers are really tanky to compensate, though, I think squishy careers are harder to play than slayer or zealot, for example, because its really hard to die if your decently good at melee and even ranged careers have to melee if things go wrong. I agree that ranged careers are easier for newer players but once you learn to melee well, the melee chars are really really safe. Shade is really good for ambients and hordes mainly because she only needs 3-4 seconds in melee to reset her ult which resets agro and she can go ham again for couple seconds. Granted its the hardest melee career because you have to actually focus and have good awareness whole game to not take hits.
In fact, I think melee characters are too tanky now because it doesn’t feel as interesting meleeing with many of the tanks because they don’t care about taking hits, since temp will cover for the chip dmg that gets in. Also if your BH is destroying most of the horde there is no danger to actually take hits since you can see all the enemies, so no need for temp HP. Only thing thats a little scary as shade is to go hit high density to reset ur special but it has really good tools to handle those sitations aswell, with glaive pushstab and dual swords ridiculous attack speed.
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Adding cleave to 1-2 enemies standing inside a Chaos Warriors leg wouldn’t hurt imo.
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People underestimate how strong mobile careers are against bosses. Not even mentioning how the FK just slaps them down.
True. Or they could prevent elites from stacking with each other and other enemies. I heard this is how they worked in VT1.
But still that’s not a major problem.
And then every melee character has to run away from boss, because they will get up any second and instagib someone.
I think someone already told you to block hits.
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maybe it is rude, but the average player in this community (or at least the ones who think they belong in legend) should have been told to git gud a thousand times over by now and calling them idiots is putting it lightly, when you watch someone walk face first into a chaos patrol that’s been pinged 3 times, called out with audio cues and in text + voice chat. it’s an understatement when they sit there hunting green circles as a team mate loses 70% of his health to a lone gutter runner before they bother reacting. there aren’t even words for it when they can’t hold one doorway during a horde, meanwhile your dwarf buddy is holding the other side by MELEEING WITH HIS GRUDGERAKER and not taking any damage.
i don’t expect everyone to by some top 1% player at 100% efficiency for the entire run every game, i’m certainly not one of those people. there are days my aim is so bad you’d think i was playing using a steering wheel. the main guy i play with is halfway across the world from me and despite his great connection i have a slight delay that causes screw ups. i’m far from a perfectionist in this. i don’t care about meta characters and weapons and would much rather meme about and laugh during matches. the average person that you find in legend is so far down the ladder in terms of skill that it is flat out infuriating to play and doing a duo run, with or without bots, is legitimately a better alternative because the lack of dead weight.
i feel like a god of death simply because i know how to mix in pushes and dodges with my swings rather than spam LMB like a flailing goon, and that’s ridiculously sad. it should not be like this on the highest difficulty, but it not only is, it’s actively frowned upon to call people bad or tell them to learn to play.
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These hits pierce block. 
So toxic, omg.
Nevertheless, how does this contradict that:
The answer is - it doesn’t. Yes, the majority of players aren’t skilled enough for legend, but this doesn’t deny the fact that there is a bunch of unfair mechanics that make legend even harder.
Also there is no other difficulty to play. Champion is a joke both difficulty and reward wise.
You’re clearly doing something wrong. Our friend neighbor experts @FlashFuzz and @birdman will explain that to you.
Few hits pierce block. 
Oh, you want my opinion? This whole thread should just die already. Its mostly an affront to logic and critical thinking.
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Honestly the only good thing to come out of this thread is this line making me chuckle:
I know those feels bro!