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Dual Dagger Block Movespeed

LTCpandersLTCpanders 22 PointsMember, Level2
edited December 2016 in Feedback & Bugs (PC)
First of all I want to say well done on the weapons and traits rebalancing patch earlier this month. I'm finding myself using all kinds of weapons I haven't used since my levels were in the single digits. I'm really liking the new Swiftbow. I'm very impressed with how well you guys respond to feedback and engage the player community. Please keep it up.

I couldn't help but notice that Kerillian moves slower while blocking with dual daggers than doing the same with dual swords or sword/dagger.

According to this spreadsheet for 1.5: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1h3GnI6sIS77oXnCzE05k7KTkOoGJ3UezeVi24miBBoM/edit#gid=1346228124

Block move speed for Dual Daggers is 85%; Dual Swords is 95%; Sword/Dagger is 95%; and 1h Sword is 95%.

Is this intended? It seems like she should block move faster with dual daggers than at least dual swords and/or sword/dagger. Thank you.

Comments

  • QuanrianQuanrian 117 PointsMember, Level4
    I can only guess at it being a balance factor since I do believe the Dual Daggers has the highest or at least quite high DPS. Otherwise, yes it does not make a whole lot of sense.
    Eat the game before it devours your life!
  • LTCpandersLTCpanders 22 PointsMember, Level2
    Does it though? Factoring in that it is limited to single target damage? I guess with Backstabbery maybe but that's conditional and trait reliant.
  • QuanrianQuanrian 117 PointsMember, Level4
    Unless you literally never move the single target damage is grossly ignored due to the attack speed and any amount of motion on the player's part. So yes, you're only hit one target, except you've just hit four in less time than it takes a slower weapon to hit three.
    Eat the game before it devours your life!
  • LTCpandersLTCpanders 22 PointsMember, Level2
    I think for a substantial part of the game, the fact that dual daggers are limited to single target is difficult to ignore. There are other considerations as well. Daggers only have 2 shields (4 stamina). They are very difficult to use against hordes. I find it incredibly difficult to use daggers anytime there is a stormvermin amidst other rats like clanrats, or two stormvermin at once.

    Dual daggers have been one of my favorite weapons since I started playing this game. It just seems really odd that its block move speed is slower than dual swords / sword + dagger. I don't think raising dual dagger move speed to 95% would make the daggers overpowered. I think it would just bring it more in line with those weapons.
  • QuanrianQuanrian 117 PointsMember, Level4
    Waywatcher really is not meant to deal in melee with Storm Vermin. The advent of the Glaive for her was quite literally to allow her to fill that niche. If you're playing as her you might find it more useful to switch to range in that situation to either thin the herd or directly target those Storm Vermin. It's really a shame there aren't special triggers for something like a falling charged strike with certain weapons like the double daggers as seen in Thief.
    Eat the game before it devours your life!
  • LTCpandersLTCpanders 22 PointsMember, Level2
    I'm not trying to discuss how to overcome the shortcomings of using daggers. I'm trying to convey that the decreased block move speed doesn't seem to make sense given her other weapons.
  • QuanrianQuanrian 117 PointsMember, Level4
    I'm curious to know what the values were before 1.5 to see what adjustments were made. As for shortcomings... I am still not convinced it's a poor weapon... Yes it hits one target per swing but she swings very fast as I noted and she has an endless combo on it. Try her other weapons and I am sure you will notice they get a normal combo that ends in a pause before starting again. Thus, while you may find it lacking the developers and the meta may find it quite good and this resulted in a minor nerf to encourage use of other more complex weapons in her arsenal.
    Eat the game before it devours your life!
  • LTCpandersLTCpanders 22 PointsMember, Level2
    edited January 6
    Quanrian, I use dual daggers probably more than any WW player I know. I've played them almost exclusively for nearly 100 levels. You keep saying that the block move speed is nerfed because of how good the daggers are. I think you're failing to note how much better some of her other weapons are in more situations.

    I like the daggers because they're fun but there's no reason the block move speed should be .85 as opposed to short sword (.95), sword & dagger (.95), dual swords (.95). Not to mention, dual daggers have 4 stamina as opposed to short sword (6), sword & dagger (6), dual swords (6). Additionally, dual daggers have a 1.75 HS multiplier on its push stab as opposed to sword & dagger (2.5), dual swords (2.5).

    Sure the daggers attack pretty fast with its light attacks but it's the only weapon among the other 3 mentioned that are 100% limited to single target damage/stagger.

    Still think the block speed "nerf" is justified Quanrian?

    Came across a post on reddit today that conveys exactly how I feel regarding the daggers. The daggers aren't terrible weapons but things like its block move speed don't make sense in context of all of the other WW weapons. You can see it here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Vermintide/comments/5m9hw0/bad_weapons_as_of_15/dc20jde/

    In relevant part:
    "Here's my opinions on the weapons I like the least and why:
    ...
    Dual Daggers - There's an obvious bias towards the Sword and Dagger by whomever covers elf balancing, and the Dual Daggers really receive the short end of the stick. 0.85 move speed compared to 0.95 move speed on Dual Swords, Sword, Sword and Dagger (which makes zero sense whatsoever). Charged attack speed isn't any faster than S/D, sword, or Glaive. Swing speed is only a little faster than S/D. Single target weapon, yet still has 0.04 proc rate for Regrowth Normal and Swift Slaying Normal. Push stab is worse than either of the other options for that. The daggers are really fun to play now, but they're just (still) intentionally mechanically inferior to the golden child of Sword and Dagger.
    ..."
  • QuanrianQuanrian 117 PointsMember, Level4
    edited January 6
    It's not a matter of what I think (our personal investment is not equal) so much as I am avoiding being too agreeable because that is just lazy on my part. Also, I am not able to open document without crashing my browser. So, if you could post the relevant information from the file I would appreciate it. I'm not sure why you are ignoring Dual Daggers having no pause in attack due to an endless combo since it is unique to them. It's so unique in fact that I wonder if it was intentional or accidental because in sustained DPS it is giving Dual Daggers a fine edge.

    While I do enjoy this I have not really offered any suggestions that would benefit you so I will try and address that. There's one trinket that comes to mind and it doesn't seem all that frequently used but since it procs on hit and Dual Daggers should be hitting insanely often it makes sense. Without further adieu, Arcane Lustrian Flask to fully take advantage of the Dual Daggers quirk to hit constantly without pause and you now have what equates to a critical by simply spamming regular attacks.
    Eat the game before it devours your life!
  • LTCpandersLTCpanders 22 PointsMember, Level2
    Here you go.
    xlsx
    xlsx
    Vermintide Melee and Ranged Weapon Damage, Enemy Health and other stuff.xlsx
    1M
  • QuanrianQuanrian 117 PointsMember, Level4
    Yeah, having trouble viewing that as well so uh... just copy and paste what the values were and are now. I 'can' play the PC version but it is not an amazing experience so this leaves me comparing it to the pre-update version on consoles. It might be several PC updates until I can tweak any new graphical settings they add or perhaps they fix the jacked up physics that I can swear is at least part of the problem.
    Eat the game before it devours your life!
  • LTCpandersLTCpanders 22 PointsMember, Level2
    Forget it.
  • LTCpandersLTCpanders 22 PointsMember, Level2
    Anyone else think this seems unintended?
  • Jakal_of_Kazak_VlagJakal_of_Kazak_Vlag 158 PointsMember, Level4

    Anyone else think this seems unintended?

    what are you lazily trying to refer to?
  • QuanrianQuanrian 117 PointsMember, Level4
    We wont know for sure until Fatshark themselves states yes or no and perhaps even why.
    Eat the game before it devours your life!
  • LTCpandersLTCpanders 22 PointsMember, Level2

    Anyone else think this seems unintended?

    what are you lazily trying to refer to?
    See OP

  • LTCpandersLTCpanders 22 PointsMember, Level2
    edited February 10
    https://www.reddit.com/r/Vermintide/comments/5t3qbb/patch_16_the_real_changes/

    "Increased dual wield daggers blocking move speed from 85 to 90%."
    "Reduced dual wield swords and sword/dagger blocking movespeed from 95% to 85%."

    Vindication.
  • QuanrianQuanrian 117 PointsMember, Level4
    Encourage new thread asking why dual swords got nerfed! >:)
    Eat the game before it devours your life!
This discussion has been closed.