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weapon rebalance - a filthy casual perspective

sfoxxsfoxx 12 PointsUnconfirmed, Level2
hey, so new (console) player here and I'm aware you guys have a weapon balance planned

I have no idea how far along it is or what's changing, but I see a lot of vets have already put in their 2 cents, so thought I'd do the same

I'd just like to point out that when you're considering rebalancing, especially if that involves nerfs - that these changes are going to affect everyone, not just the hardcore. As a non-elite, average-player and noob I'm a little concerned that balancing around the top 1% of players will leave a lot of us with very limited weapon choices.

I'm being very presumptuous here - you may have something entirely different planned, but there are a lot of posts and comments calling for weapon nerfs rather then buffs - reason I'm concerned about this is that while it may make sense for experienced players with a selection of exotic weapons with top tier perks, a lot of us don't have that option -we're still getting by on greens and blues with less than ideal traits.

I'm not asking you to ignore experienced players, just realise that for players who aren't highly skilled and experienced with a great weapon collection, broad nerfs are going to hit us hard.

It seems to me players already have solutions available to avoid "over -powered" weapons:
-don't use them
-use versions with less than optimal traits
-use white versions with no perks


all these options let players challenge themselves without affecting the fun that others have. It's easy for skilled experienced players to make the game harder for themselves - but difficult for average players to make the game easier.

I saw the RatsChats challenge - running Cataclysm with white gear, but I've yet to see a solo white run cataclysm with no consumables used. Again just saying players can challenge themselves without requiring weapons nerfs.

I'd be nice if you could take this into account before implementing changes that affect all players.

PS: if you're getting complaints about weapons making the game too easy, or Cata being too easy - maybe think about Mutators a la Left 4 Dead or Payday 2 - letting player set their own difficulty?

Comments

  • QuanrianQuanrian 117 PointsMember, Level4
    I think you are worrying about this too much. Weapon balancing by nature does not reduce choices it increases them. Currently there are some very strong metas that people are unlikely to break away from because certain weapons are just way better than others. This goes so far as to completely invalidate other weapon choices.

    A good example of this is Long Bow versus True Aim Longbow. Once you get that True Aim it absolutely invalidates the Long Bow because its stats are identical but one has a built in lock-on mechanic. Now there is a difference, you get less ammo for the True Aim but who cares if you have a built in lock-on? So in a case like this, the Long Bow by itself has no identity and it reduces your choices of bows often down to just the True Aim or bust.
    Eat the game before it devours your life!
  • sfoxxsfoxx 12 PointsUnconfirmed, Level2
    the word you re looking for is paranoid - and yes the aim is to provide more balance, but.....there are quite a few posts here and other forums asking for NERFS to weapons - not balance, not making them less OP but actual "nerf this weapon into the ground or remove it from the game" posts. That doesn't lead to more choice, it leads to less.


    And altho I'm a newcomer to Vermintide, I've seen plenty of other developers do just that, with horrible consequences - hop over to the Payday 2 forums and see how much of a shitstorm the recent difficulty rebalance caused, reducing viable weapons to a literal handful - because that's what the hardcore asked for. Everything's OP please nerf. Destiny did the same with whole weapon categories, only now are they actually considering buffing weapons again due to player dissatisfaction.

    Unfortunately I'm not even exaggerating. I read a post (either here or reddit) saying Trueflight should have it's tracking removed, but maybe gain some extra ammo (kinda almost identical to the longbow huh?). That's not increasing choice. You want to make the longbow viable, buff it. And even if you removed the Trueflight from the game, the swiftbow is still garbage, so why bother use it over the remaining 2? Now the longbow and hagbane are OP and get nerfed to bring them in line with the swiftbow?

    I hope you're right (really) but if the only feedback developers get is "nerf " everything, whaddya think they're gonna do? Sometimes, the answer if buff the under-performers. Lots of players say the one-handed axe is crap - I agree. So do we nerf every other melee weapon in the game, or buff the under performing weapons?


    On a separate note, there's something weird going on with my profile so couldn't post an answer re:clubs.

    Xbox usually updates automatically - except this week - try a manual update. Once that's done scroll allong the options at the top beside "store" etc and it should list "community" - choose that and you can search for clubs. Once your accepted you can view and list LFG posts, chat and see who else from the club is on
  • QuanrianQuanrian 117 PointsMember, Level4
    I wouldn't suggest they do anything but give each weapon a unique role and make them less similar but originally they might have been intended as upgrades. So in that way, you would go from Swift Bow (default bow) to a Hagbane or a Longbow to a True Flight. You're right as well that there will be division no matter what choices are made.

    You can actually see a meta-debate going on while people push for content sooner while others demand fixes sooner. Ergo, this is far from a united or single minded community especially since it's now fractured to three different platforms running three separate versions. Ultimately, I accept whatever they choose and will adapt because I do not have to do the work after all.

    Not sure if that bit about clubs and LFG is directed at me or not but thanks for the information regardless!
    Eat the game before it devours your life!
  • sfoxxsfoxx 12 PointsUnconfirmed, Level2
    hopefully FS will do what they think is best - I just hope they don't nerf everything, thinking they're doing "the community" a favour. As you pointed out, it's not a single unified community.

    As a minor point, I hope they don't try to balance weapons by creating a tier structure - as that just means certain weapons are garbage at higher difficulties, thus reducing the choice of viable weapons. I suspect the swiftbow isn't a beginner weapon as such, but a crowd-control weapon - but is competing not with the other bows, but against melee weapons, which do the same job but with unlimited ammo.

    I guess I'm worried after reading the weapon rebalance post on the front page of the general discussions section, which I can summarise as :

    -noobs aren't welcome, remove any easy to use weapons, because noobs use them
    -the 2 ranged characters have OP ranged weapons (just, wow...)
    -nerf every bow that isn't the swiftbow (not kidding)
    -nerf every staff that isn't the fireball staff
    -my dicks bigger than yours (honestly, that's how the "discussion" ends)

    If that's the feedback FS are getting, I'm note hopeful :(
  • Halvars90Halvars90 56 PointsMember, Level3
    Well Sfoxx, I do hope they decide to make the other weapons better in a way so we get more variety intead of nerfs.

    I have seen as you point out people being real "dick's" an requiring the Trueflight and Bolt-Staff to be nerfed, but really it is the other weapons who fail to make an impact on the game, so of course people are going to use these weapons.

    I do not know how they are going to change things but I hope they will make some good changes.

    A thought regarding the Longbow for the Elf, maybee that bow could have an attack that peirces trough rats and hits striaght trough 2 - 3 rats, maybee add a chance to it so does not happens every shot. But thats only one weapon, a few more to go.
  • sfoxxsfoxx 12 PointsUnconfirmed, Level2
    they have lots of possibilities to play around with from adjusting damage for different difficulties, innate piercing, armour penetration, ammo capacity etc etc. Keeping my fingers crossed L-)
  • QuanrianQuanrian 117 PointsMember, Level4
    Still just happy to have the variety we do. This game really took the formula L4D created a whole lot farther IMHO. I can get bored with a weapon or character and try another without it being a purely cosmetic/aural change.
    Eat the game before it devours your life!
  • VaultVault 24 PointsMember, Level2
    I agree with not nerfing, try playing on cata by yourself, games tough enough as is. And besides, this is strictly co-op, not pvp or anything. Don't change a 2 year old game that is losing players.


  • TanglethornTanglethorn 22 PointsMember, Level2
    I think the point is to get all weapons to around the same state of viability. For example, I have an exotic Bolt Staff. Before that I was using Beam and also tried to swap in the Conflag and Fireball staff with out experiencing the same effectiveness as the Bolt Staff. Even though the Bolt staff is my main, the problem results to the fact the Bolt staff can fill almost any role while the other staves have limitations. With the Bolt staff I can snipe, take out multiple mobs in one shot and effectively take on a swarm using normal attack mode. The other staves currently dont compare...

    Ive seen the patch notes for the next weapon balance push and they dont look bad. FireBall staff is getting a buff and Conflag is getting some pretty neat changes. Based off memory it looks like its attack rate might be going up and if you fully charge the staff up to max for its alternative fire mode it actually leaves a patch of fire on the ground similiar to the incendiary grenades. On the down side, it now has friendly fire in Nightmare and above.

    The bolt staff is getting tuned down a bit and the same for True Flight. I cant remember all the specifics, but it appears you now have to manually lock on to a target in order to active the tracking shot. I'll try and dig up the notes in a bit, but so far its looking good. Especially for one handed weapons...
  • TanglethornTanglethorn 22 PointsMember, Level2
    edited December 2016
    Found it. Enjoy!

    WEAPON BALANCE

    General

    1h Weapons
    Dodge distance increased
    Dodge speed increased
    Block movespeed increased
    Headshotting on light attacks\

    Friendly Fire
    Friendly fire is now rescaled and retweaked
    Damage over time deals less friendly fire
    AoE effects deal less friendly fire

    Traits
    Reduced Mastercrafted reload speed to 25% faster

    Sienna Fuegonasus

    Staff - Fireball
    Reduced heat buildup on charge
    Reduced heat buildup on charge attack
    Increased damage on charge attack
    Charged shots now pierce normal rats

    Staff - Conflagration
    Reduced heat buildup on charge
    Reduced heat buildup on charge attack
    Added friendly fire to charge attack
    New ability: Creates a firepatch on the ground if full charge is achieved

    Staff - Beam
    Reduced heat buildup on charge
    Reduced heat buildup on beam attack
    Tweaked beam ramp-up damage
    Increased beam-blast damage
    Added friendly fire to blast attack

    Staff - Bolt
    Reduced heat buildup on charge
    Normalized heat buildup on level 1, 2, 3 of bolt
    Rescaled targets hit by uncharged and fully charged bolt
    Non-locked projectile hits body
    Locked projectile headshots first target
    Tweaked trueflight behaviour

    1h swords
    Increased attack speed
    Increased damage of third light attack in chain
    Increased number of targets hit by light attack(s)
    Slightly increased attack speed

    Bardin Goreksson

    1h Hammers
    Increased number of targets hit by light attack(s)
    Changed attack speed
    Increased heavy attack damage

    2h Axes
    Increased damage on light and heavy attack
    Reduced slowdown while charging
    Increased attackspeed
    Tweaked hitboxes
    Increased attack range
    Increased number of block shields by 0.5

    Drake Pistols
    Slightly increased attack speed
    Added headshotting multiplier
    Added friendly fire to charged attack

    Grudge-Raker
    Now deals damage to armored enemies when close
    Increased attack speed on secondary push

    2h Hammers
    Reduced efficent dodge count by 1

    Handguns
    Tweaked damage
    Staggers pack masters
    Removed active reload
    Decreased reload speed

    Crossbows
    Increased headshot damage multiplier
    Increased damage
    Removed active reload
    Decreased reload speed
    Increased ammo capacity

    Markus Kruber

    Blunderbusses
    Increased damage
    Now deals damage to armored enemies when close
    Increased attack speed on secondary push

    2h Hammers
    Reduced efficent dodge count by 1

    Handguns
    Tweaked damage
    Staggers pack masters
    Removed active reload
    Decreased reload speed

    2h Swords
    Light attack: Increased number of targets hit
    Heavy attack: Reduced attack-speed slightly
    Increased attack range

    1h swords
    Increased attack speed
    Increased damage of third light attack in chain
    Increased number of targets hit by light attack(s)
    Slightly increased attack speed

    Kerillian

    Dual wield daggers
    Overhaul: Light attacks are now fast-firing slashes that chain into each other
    Heavy stab deals more damage

    Dual wield sword and dagger
    Tweaked push stab
    Dual wield swords

    Dual Swords
    Light attack: Increased number of targets hit
    Heavy attack: Reduced number of targets hit - Increased damage vs armor
    Increased number of block shields by 1

    Longbows
    Increased headshot damage multiplier
    Light shot pierces armor
    Increased ammo capacity

    Trueflight Longbow
    Lightshot now trueflights, can not lock
    Non-locked projectile hits body
    Locked projectile headshots first target
    Reduced max ammo
    Tweaked trueflight behaviour

    Swiftbows
    Increased light shot damage
    Aimed shot now pierces armor and deals headshotting damage
    Increased ammo
    Removed headshotting multiplier on light attack

    Hagbane Swiftbow
    Reduced friendly fire

    Victor Saltzpyre

    1h axes
    Increased damage
    Increased attackspeed
    Increased number of block shields by 0.5

    Brace of Pistols
    Increased damage to armored targets
    Tighter crosshair
    Added Headshotting
    Increased max ammo

    Repeating Handgun
    Increased damage to armored targets
    Tighter crosshair
    Headshotting
    Tweaked bullet spray attack
    Increased attack speed

    2h Swords
    Light attack: Increased number of targets hit
    Heavy attack: Reduced attack-speed slightly
    Increased attack range

    Crossbows
    Increased headshot damage multiplier
    Increased damage
    Removed active reload
    Decreased reload speed
    Increased ammo capacity
  • sfoxxsfoxx 12 PointsUnconfirmed, Level2
    cool. Melee weapons seem to (mostly) be receiving buffs, especially the one-handers. The 2-handed axe also looks like a definite contender - I've been screwing around with it recently and still favour the hammer, so looking forward to the changes.

    Not sure I'm sold on the ranged changes - bit of a mixed bag. Wizard staffs seem to be in a good place The handgun/crossbow reload nerfs seem a bit unnecessary? But I'll have to try them - crossbow looks to be more competitive compared to handgun which is good - always felt it needed more ammo and it's a great run-and-gun (bow?) weapon with very forgiving hipfire. Unfortunately the game doesn't like giving them to me :(

    Re: elf - I don't play Kerillian too much (still trying to break the dwarf-addiction) but I'm not sure the swiftbow's going to be too much better - it's definitely better at what it does (trash-clearing), unfortunately that's not a valued role compared to what the other bows can offer.

    Really glad they reduced FF damage of the hagbane, cause damn that thing hurts.

    Trueflight - mixed bag. The "nerfing" of the tracking seems more like a buff, i.e more likely to hit the target you're aiming at. The ammo nerf was unecessary and will just make ammo holder and melees with scavenger more popular, as if they weren't already.

    Other thing I noted was that Bardin's 1h axe was buffed just like Victors (damage stats differ slightly, apparently) but the patch notes don't specifically mention this. Same with the repeaters pistols for Victor and Markus.

    Those who've played the beta seem to think balance is a lot better with formerly sub-par weapons being a lot more viable, tho there's some concern the glaive's light attack may really have been proper-nerfed. Maybe one day RNG will bless me and I can find out for myself!

  • QuanrianQuanrian 117 PointsMember, Level4
    edited December 2016
    I am just glad the dodge distance and speed 'seems' to have improved even if it was only for some weapons. I always felt the dodge was semi-useless unless you spammed it. In my opinion that is not how a dodge should be. I cannot wait to test it out as soon as I can get my time machine working. One problem at a time I suppose...
    Eat the game before it devours your life!
This discussion has been closed.