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Using shield, blocking, pushing, bashing and crowd control.

M1stycznyM1styczny 51 PointsMember, Level2
edited April 2016 in Tutorials
I play usualy dwarf on cataclysm but can play any other hero. Completed 12 maps on cata (White Rat crashing on me after patch 1.1.3 ps fix it Fatshark). I usualy play with friends all long maps with 3/2 tomes/grims with pretty good success rate on Cataclysm difficulty.

I writting this because I never see other DR/ES players do what shield is for. It is not my idea (I read about it on reddit) but the best way to prevent ANY damage to teammates behind (aside from specials) is just to crouch in front of your team and holding block ALL THE TIME. I hope that I dont need to remind that during swarms you should find nearest corner/high ground/choke point. Usualy 80%-90% of all long maps can be fight like that. It is not the fastest way to beat Cataclysm but far safer than going with 2H hammer. In my opinion the best weapon especialy for dwarf is axe & shield, you have armour penetration on both attacks quicker shield bash than hammer & shield and axe is great against Stormvermins. Always remember if someone is standing beside you (very close) and you holding block then he will not take any damage even if he is the target.
TIP 1: during blocking spam your mark button (default "T") and look around (block works 360 degre). It will show all sneaky packmasters, stormvermins and somtimes even gutters that want to surprise you and your team.
TIP 2: if you not running or shooting hold block and look around (always) watch others peoples back (always) and help them/inform them (VOIP).
TIP 3: you can run faster with block using tomes/medpacks (medpack 2 shields, tome as many as your weapon) and even pushing (also with barrel). This is very usefull for speedruns or just escaping from swarms (enemy below finale).


As I said it will not work in 10%-20% situations.
Next thing you should learn is crowd control when you cant secure good spot to defend. You need to have rythm using shield push and shield bash (charged attack). I like to do push bash until i have low stamina and then push bash bash to regain it. Your job is to prevent rats from surrounding or flooding teammates, try to push rats in to one group, if you see that situation in front is secure watch behind (always watch behind if you can).

All of this needs practice and patience (blocking is boring i know).

Now lets talk specials. (easiest to worst on bullshit deaths scale)

Packmaster - (TIP 1) usualy the easiest to deal with if you play with good team (no point playing with bad team on cata).

Rattling gunner - 1 shot from handgun sometimes and he is dead (even on cata) can shoot through walls sometimes. You can block his shots but not for very long.

Rat Ogre - alone ogre is usualy not what kills you but other skavens/specials. Only one player needs to kite ogre and others clear rats/specials. Your role should be protecting WH/BW from skavens or kiting ogre.

TIP 4: kiting ogre - in my opinion best way is just dodging back with block up. Dont let him hit you because hi will change target or go too far because he will jump. Be aware of your position.

Stormvermin - alone non issue (TIP 1) but sometimes there can be 4 or 6 of them at once and close then you are probably dead. Best way to deal with them is to create space and you can do it using shield push especialy with good stamina traits dont try to hit them with bash just push them away and mark them wait to regain stamina and do it again until others can kill them.

Gutter runner - quick, mobile, hard to kill quickly and can kill you on cataclysm in just few seconds his pounce can push others from ledge. Quickest way to take him of is to push or shoot him in head. He can wipe everyone if your team dont have much HP and is very hard to spot. When he is jumping on you try side dodge.

Globadier - Kill him as fast as you can. He can wipe whole team full HP (on cata) with one shot and can shoot over obstacles. He is your first target. When you see his bomb in the air try run to your side. Pray to get orange Iron lung trinket then you are safe (-90% to damage from gass bombs).

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UPDATE:

After playing much more Vermintide and few updates:
What I wrote before still works but i have to agree that it will not work with pubs. Now I usualy play as BW with bolt staff but I can play any hero. I will write few sugestions to all of them and gear that works for me (with usefull traits).

Bright Wizard
All staffs can do its job on last stand and 3 of them on normal runs (fireball still to much FF). (bloodlust/regrowth, stability)
normal or flaming sword (bloodlust, ethening rune (charged)) and if possible devastating blow but it is rare combination.
- use sword to reduce heat
- use life to reduce heat (it is worth it)
- charged attack hits multiple rats (damage only 2) and with erthening rune you can reduce heat quickly

Dwarf Ranger
2H hammer or 2H axe + Handgun
Axe and shield + Drikefires
Dwarf is the most defensive class of all. Axe and shield combo is good in any situation with great CC and high single target damage that is also AP. Dwarf with shield should not take handgun because he is in front controling wave but if noone have any good 1 or better 2 special killing weapons (bolt/beam staff, handgun, any bow with AP, crossbow) then take handgun.

Empire Soldier
2H Sword + Handgun
2H hammer + Handgun
Sword/Mace and shield + handgun/blunderbus
Similar to Dwarf with 2 sets of weapons but Sword and shield dont have AP in normal attack.
On the other hand 2H sword is the best melee weapon to kill many rats (can damage up to 6 rats in one charged attack for 23 damage 6-4-4-3-3-3 and 2H hammer only 8 damage.

Waywatcher
I use Sword & Dagger (RED) + Truflight (RED) but any weapon on Waywatcher is at least viable (except Swift bow with no AP). Hagbane or Longbow are good alternatives and other melee weapons can work.
The best in Waywatcher is her runnig speed while blocking. Thanks to that you should always block during fights if you not dealig damage. Learn your weapon combo patern and mix it with pushing. Your first target are rats that try to sneak from sides or back. Best traits for her melee weapons are Killing blow (normal) and regrowth (normal). She is not ranged focused character like BW and she have very good DPS.

Witch Hunter
2H Sword + Any range weapon but all of them are not really good.
Rapier + ^^
He can play like Empire Soldier with 2H sword or like Waywatcher with Rapier. With rapier he is not as fast while blocking but when dealing damage. If he have space he can kite large number of rats while attacking them. Best traits are just like on Elf melee weapon regrowth (normal) and killing blow (normal).

In my opinion there are 4 types of playing styles that are require for diffrent weapons.

Ranged character.
Only Bright Wizard.
Other characters are limited by ammo or are just better with melee weapons.

Shield character
Empire Soldier
Dwarf Ranger
They are focused on crowd control and defensive play. Very good against stormvermins.

2H character
Empire Soldier
Dwarf Ranger
Witch Hunter (2H sword)
They are best at killing waves and crowd control. They are weaker against stormvermins.

Fast attack character
Waywatcher
Witch Hunter (rapier)
They are best at killing small groups of rats and move fast around battlefield. Weak at crowd control.

Few trait sugestions
Every melee weapon (and wizard staff) should have some kind of heal on kill/hit.
2H weapons and shields Bloodlust and devastating blow.
Fast weapons regrowth on normal attack and killing blow.
Staffs, Drikefire pistols regrowth or bloodlust, stability.
Other range weapons mastercrafted, extra capicity, extra ammo, hail of doom, skullcracker, rupture, targeteer. Anything that improve your damage.

Few tips on blocking, pushing.

Why we use push instead of attack.
-to interrupt rats
-to group up rats
-to create space

-when picking up consumables, teammates and opening chest hold block.
-when few rats running at you hold block and let them hit you and then attack (hitting block cause stun).
-to create space push rats and quickly dodge back.
-devastating blow on almost all weapons or shields can interrupt stormvermins attacks.
-push dont works on climbing rats.
-push will interrupt enemy attack but also your block so you can be hit at that moment.
-it is better to start attack with push, it will group up rats and reset thier actions

One of things that I like about vermintide is that higher difficuty will force you to use all its mechanics and if you learn when to use them without thinking you will feel your skill. You have to practice to achieve that. And doing so you will have fun (at least I had). I have almost 600 h in this game and I still have fun.

Comments

  • JebedyJebedy 35 PointsMember, Level2
    Shield-walling is great in an organised team. It's pretty much hopeless in pick-up groups though, even on Cataclysm runs, as people always push forward or change position. Unless you want to be 'that guy' who is constantly barking orders over team-speak. Personally, I don't...

    In terms of axe/shield vs two-handed hammer I think it depends on the group dynamic. If you're with a soldier who is using shield then more damage is obviously preferable. Things will go a heck of a lot quicker with that charged attack swinging away. One thing that doesn't seem well thought out from a developmental perspective is the number of hits-to-kill for weapons at different difficulties. The two-handed hammer kills an ordinary skaven in one normal attack on Nightmare, but takes two on Cataclysm. Whereas the axe/shield takes two normal attacks on both Nightmare and Cataclysm. This really handicaps two-handed weapons on Cataclysm runs. I don't think it really makes sense that a higher damage-dealing weapon takes longer to kill a single target than a lower damage-dealing weapon does, especially when the lower damage-dealing weapon comes with a shield attached to it.
  • PieuvrePieuvre 24 PointsMember, Level2
    I'm not a really good english reader, so i'm not sur if you said it, but a think really usefull, not just for shield but more safe, it's, when you want to rez someone, to BLOCK (with weapon or Shield) before clicking "E" to rez. You will have the block during the rez (little shields).
  • GulfwulfGulfwulf 72 PointsMember, Level3
    Thanks PIeuvre. I'll have to remember that the next time I play.
  • command_codescommand_codes 51 PointsMember, Level3
    Well and good but with an extremely pro team they won't take damage and the shield is unnecessary. And the 2 hander fast switching with the blunderbuss alt melee has a much better chance of protecting himself than with a plain 2 hander, and rapidly wrecks hordes

    That said I'm rarely rested or sober enough to try hard on cataclysm, and the shield is obviously safer. If you're going to be largely passively blocking, consider that sword+shield and axe+shield can spam shield punch instead
  • KanonKanon 137 PointsMember, Level3
    Would you say Devastating Blow on shields is a good idea or is it a bit overkill?
  • Alistair_MacbainAlistair_Macbain 30 PointsMember, Level2
    Devastating blow is a great trait even on shields imo.
    Devastating blow exists to push stormvermin and control them easier.
  • KanonKanon 137 PointsMember, Level3
    I know what devastating blow is good for. It's just that you can push those and rattlings even without that trait when you're using a shield, so I don't know if it's recommended.
  • GulfwulfGulfwulf 72 PointsMember, Level3
    Does block still work 360 degrees or was that patched?
  • KanonKanon 137 PointsMember, Level3
    It still works. Sometimes it feels like I still get hit on my back but I'm just getting hit right as I'm pushing (which is infuriating, by the way)
  • GulfwulfGulfwulf 72 PointsMember, Level3
    Ah, okay. I've experienced the same thing so I wasn't sure. Then again, my team tends to run ahead of me, so I generally only block to prevent damage to myself. :D
  • M1stycznyM1styczny 51 PointsMember, Level2
    edited April 2016
    Update after playing much more Vermintide and few updates:
    What I wrote before still works but i have to agree that it will not work with pubs. Now I usualy play as BW with bolt staff but I can play any hero. I will write few sugestions to all of them and gear that works for me (with usefull traits).

    Bright Wizard
    All staffs can do its job on last stand and 3 of them on normal runs (fireball still to much FF). (bloodlust/regrowth, stability)
    normal or flaming sword (bloodlust, ethening rune (charged)) and if possible devastating blow but it is rare combination.
    - use sword to reduce heat
    - use life to reduce heat (it is worth it)
    - charged attack hits multiple rats (damage only 2) and with erthening rune you can reduce heat quickly

    Dwarf Ranger
    2H hammer or 2H axe + Handgun
    Axe and shield + Drikefires
    Dwarf is the most defensive class of all. Axe and shield combo is good in any situation with great CC and high single target damage that is also AP. Dwarf with shield should not take handgun because he is in front controling wave but if noone have any good 1 or better 2 special killing weapons (bolt/beam staff, handgun, any bow with AP, crossbow) then take handgun.

    Empire Soldier
    2H Sword + Handgun
    2H hammer + Handgun
    Sword/Mace and shield + handgun/blunderbus
    Similar to Dwarf with 2 sets of weapons but Sword and shield dont have AP in normal attack.
    On the other hand 2H sword is the best melee weapon to kill many rats (can damage up to 6 rats in one charged attack for 23 damage 6-4-4-3-3-3 and 2H hammer only 8 damage.

    Waywatcher
    I use Sword & Dagger (RED) + Truflight (RED) but any weapon on Waywatcher is at least viable (except Swift bow with no AP). Hagbane or Longbow are good alternatives and other melee weapons can work.
    The best in Waywatcher is her runnig speed while blocking. Thanks to that you should always block during fights if you not dealig damage. Learn your weapon combo patern and mix it with pushing. Your first target are rats that try to sneak from sides or back. Best traits for her melee weapons are Killing blow (normal) and regrowth (normal). She is not ranged focused character like BW and she have very good DPS.

    Witch Hunter
    2H Sword + Any range weapon but all of them are not really good.
    Rapier + ^^
    He can play like Empire Soldier with 2H sword or like Waywatcher with Rapier. With rapier he is not as fast while blocking but when dealing damage. If he have space he can kite large number of rats while attacking them. Best traits are just like on Elf melee weapon regrowth (normal) and killing blow (normal).

    In my opinion there are 4 types of playing styles that are require for diffrent weapons.

    Ranged character.
    Only Bright Wizard.
    Other characters are limited by ammo or are just better with melee weapons.

    Shield character
    Empire Soldier
    Dwarf Ranger
    They are focused on crowd control and defensive play. Very good against stormvermins.

    2H character
    Empire Soldier
    Dwarf Ranger
    Witch Hunter (2H sword)
    They are best at killing waves and crowd control. They are weaker against stormvermins.

    Fast attack character
    Waywatcher
    Witch Hunter (rapier)
    They are best at killing small groups of rats and move fast around battlefield. Weak at crowd control.

    Few trait sugestions
    Every melee weapon (and wizard staff) should have some kind of heal on kill/hit.
    2H weapons and shields Bloodlust and devastating blow.
    Fast weapons regrowth on normal attack and killing blow.
    Staffs, Drikefire pistols regrowth or bloodlust, stability.
    Other range weapons mastercrafted, extra capicity, extra ammo, hail of doom, skullcracker, rupture, targeteer. Anything that improve your damage.

    Few tips on blocking, pushing.

    Why we use push instead of attack.
    -to interrupt rats
    -to group up rats
    -to create space

    -when picking up consumables, teammates and opening chest hold block.
    -when few rats running at you hold block and let them hit you and then attack (hitting block cause stun).
    -to create space push rats and quickly dodge back.
    -devastating blow on almost all weapons or shields can interrupt stormvermins attacks.
    -push dont works on climbing rats.
    -push will interrupt enemy attack but also your block so you can be hit at that moment.
    -it is better to start attack with push, it will group up rats and reset thier actions

    One of things that I like about vermintide is that higher difficuty will force you to use all its mechanics and if you learn when to use them without thinking you will feel your skill. You have to practice to achieve that. And doing so you will have fun (at least I had). I have almost 600 h in this game and I still have fun.
  • M1stycznyM1styczny 51 PointsMember, Level2
    edited April 2016
    -
  • PyrosaPyrosa 40 PointsMember, Level2
    Thanks for this info too, folks -- as a BW, learning that my role during cooldown is BLOCKING +PUSHING (particularly the rear) rather than attacking raised my game significantly last night.

    Still have to manage a [fellow former Borderlands player] that beelines for any chest at any time, but letting him get pounced a few times is curbing his un-knightly behavior pretty quickly. I'll see if I can get him to trade 2H for 1H+shield, but he loves being a primary damage dealer and has some kind of Stormvermin 1-shot gun.
This discussion has been closed.