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Being a Help and not a Hinderance on Nightmare +

NulgaraNulgara 99 PointsMember, Level3
edited October 2015 in Tutorials
I wanted to get a thread started discussing all the things that a player should be aware of/do/be capable of if trying to do nightmare + content.

1. First and Foremost you can and will hit your teammates with ranged attacks, there are a few ranged weapon attacks that dont do this but thats pretty much a BW thing. Stop being that guy constantly shooting me in the back of the head and helping the rats kill the team. This among all things is among the most important if you dont have the shot clean dont take it YOU move to get the shot not the guy in front of you, Melee is king in this game and the ones in melee WILL be moving A LOT its your job NOT to shoot them in the back of the head.

2. Block and Dodge: These 2 skills are vastly more important in the upper difficulties than they ever will be on Hard and below. Give yourself a test can you block and dodge circles around a rat ogre without getting hit? If so you're good if not keep practicing. that in no way means the only time you'll need to do it is vs rat ogres it means if you have that down you should have no problem jumping swinging and dodging out before the enemy can hit you back, as well as tactically retreating by blocking and dodging to a choke point or some such.

3. How many times per match do you ask yourself "Where is everyone?" If the answer is more than 0 you're not ready for Nightmare+.

4. Do you know the map? Do you know where the tomes are and the grims? If the answer is no you're not ready for Nightmare.

5. Do you think your chosen character is Sigmars gift to the killing of rats and find yourself going commando during a lot of missions? if so you're not ready for Nightmare.

6. Is your voice chat on? if no you're not ready for Nightmare

7. Do you let your team know when you join a map if you have a trinket that helps with heals or a potion spreading trinket? If no and you have one then you're not ready for nightmare.

8. When coming across a heal pack and your not at full hp do you just grab it and drink even though someone is bleeding out behind you? if yes you're not ready for normal.

9. Do you know how to crouch?( yes serious question, sometimes its needed to dodge the patrols) If no you're not ready for nightmare.

10. When you see a patrol do you? A. whip out your bow an start trying to headshot them B. whip out a bomb and chuck it C. run in with a hammer like Thor D. ask your team what they want to do ? If your answer is A,B, or C you're not ready for Nightmare.


Thats all I can think of right now I'm sure I'll come up with more later, be interested to see what else the community thinks is needed.
Decapitator of StormVermin, Bane of RakOgri
So you want to play on Nightmare+? or do you and have some tips for others stop by this thread and help turn it into a decent guide of how to get into the difficult content forums.fatsharkgames.com/discussion/2777/being-a-help-and-not-a-hinderance-on-nightmare#latest

Comments

  • NulgaraNulgara 99 PointsMember, Level3
    edited October 2015
    Another topic I would like to hit on in this thread beyond just ability and awareness is weapon choices. The game is still young but I've spent the majority of its "live" time doing nightmare, I see a lot of soldiers and dwarves and WH's using 2 handers, some of those folks have been great with them and some absolutely horrendous. Newer players or players used to lower difficulties need ot understand that the 2 handers are not necessarily the best weapons in nightmare + they are slow to swing which in turn makes them slow to block, getting interrupted even feels like it takes longer to recover from so you can block with one. If you choose to play one of these classes do yourself a favor and use a shield combo for the tank types at first, get used to the flow of nightmare before you whip out a 2 hander, chances are you will put that shield right back on like i did. I'm not saying they cant be great but they have disadvantages in the chaos and are at a supreme disadvantage when the rest of your team is down and you really need to block and push and dodge like a champ to get anyone back up. I obviously prefer the shield on those 2 characters but would love to hear from some folks that are using the 2 handers to good effect and what they are doing to make it so. Since I do use the shield exclusively on those characters I'll talk about them.

    The shield/X is a fantastic weapon choice for higher difficulty. The naturally high stamina and excellent pushback they can produce have extreme value on these missions. What I see often though is that a players will push push push push push and be out of stamina, between those pushes you can weave a charged attack which will also push/stun a fairly large aoe in front of you. those charged attacks dont cost you stamina and will allow you to push charge push charge twice as long as the other way. Your job with that shield is to CC the horde, the 2 damage dealers behind you should be taking advantage of your push and stun to thin out the horde every time you strike. As the literal "meat shield" for your team your job is not racking up kills so when your not CC'ing you should be blocking so you take as little damage as possible, your damage dealers are going to get hit let them be the ones using up the heal pots and such. try to get a shield that has a heal on charged attack trait, you will be using your charged attack to CC mobs so why not get some self heal while your doing it. also perfect balance adds 2 stamina points giving you 6 shields on the stamina bar, and finally if your going for perfect get a trait that allows you a chance to not use stamina when blocking or pushing mobs extra far. Ranged weapons for the tanks is really personal choice I like the handgun(snipe specials) for Markus and the grudge-raker(shotgun to the face for packmasters) for Bardin.

    the majority of my experience is with the dwarf and the soldier, so its super convenient that they basically function identically. Would be fantastic if some folks that main the other classes or even also the tanks can provide some input as well.
    Decapitator of StormVermin, Bane of RakOgri
    So you want to play on Nightmare+? or do you and have some tips for others stop by this thread and help turn it into a decent guide of how to get into the difficult content forums.fatsharkgames.com/discussion/2777/being-a-help-and-not-a-hinderance-on-nightmare#latest
  • Time_stops_nowTime_stops_now 53 PointsMember, Level2
    edited November 2015
    Some pretty basic, yet completely true stuff.
  • NoromizNoromiz 190 PointsMember, Level4, Beta Tester
    Nulgara said:

    8. When coming across a heal pack and your not at full hp do you just grab it and drink even though someone is bleeding out behind you? if yes your not ready for normal.

    Hahaha, you are so right it hurts :)>-

    Anyhow, it is was a good idea with some tips for nightmare, now we just need a flowchart :)

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Known as Don Karnage ingame.
    If you are new to the game, you could always look up this guide Pest Control, a quick start guide to Vermintide or one of the other guides, since they will most often answer your questions :)
  • MadaeMadae 14 PointsMember, Level1
    I think it should be added that if you don't have a bloodlust weapon (ie. a weapon that steals life on basic attack), you probably shouldn't be in Nightmare. If you haven't used one before, you really have no idea how beneficial that is. Being a good player is one thing - being a good player and being rewarded for it by being healed is another.
  • NulgaraNulgara 99 PointsMember, Level3
    edited October 2015

    Some pretty basic, yet completely true stuff.

    I have one request: (FOR THE LOVE OF SIGMAR!) *YOU'RE - seeing this repeated in every line makes me cringe.

    sorry I am completely used to Outlook changing that for me while I type. I fixed a bunch of them.
    Decapitator of StormVermin, Bane of RakOgri
    So you want to play on Nightmare+? or do you and have some tips for others stop by this thread and help turn it into a decent guide of how to get into the difficult content forums.fatsharkgames.com/discussion/2777/being-a-help-and-not-a-hinderance-on-nightmare#latest
  • NoromizNoromiz 190 PointsMember, Level4, Beta Tester
    Madae said:

    I think it should be added that if you don't have a bloodlust weapon (ie. a weapon that steals life on basic attack), you probably shouldn't be in Nightmare. If you haven't used one before, you really have no idea how beneficial that is. Being a good player is one thing - being a good player and being rewarded for it by being healed is another.

    Bloodlust increases your Attack Speed, you are referring to Regrowth, which have a chance to heal you.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Known as Don Karnage ingame.
    If you are new to the game, you could always look up this guide Pest Control, a quick start guide to Vermintide or one of the other guides, since they will most often answer your questions :)
  • CrimsonCrimson 174 PointsMember, Level3, Beta Tester
    Madae said:

    I think it should be added that if you don't have a bloodlust weapon (ie. a weapon that steals life on basic attack), you probably shouldn't be in Nightmare. If you haven't used one before, you really have no idea how beneficial that is. Being a good player is one thing - being a good player and being rewarded for it by being healed is another.

    Sorry, but I have to strongly disagree with this point. While it can be beneficial to a certain degree, it teaches you bad habits which will get you killed on cataclysm. You have to learn to not take damage at all if you plan to survive on cata, so the most important weapon traits are all stamina, crowd control or instaslaying related. (Finished all missions on nightmare and I am currently trying to do the same on cata)
  • MrNajsmanMrNajsman 111 PointsMember, Level3
    Noromiz said:

    Madae said:

    I think it should be added that if you don't have a bloodlust weapon (ie. a weapon that steals life on basic attack), you probably shouldn't be in Nightmare. If you haven't used one before, you really have no idea how beneficial that is. Being a good player is one thing - being a good player and being rewarded for it by being healed is another.

    Bloodlust increases your Attack Speed, you are referring to Regrowth, which have a chance to heal you.
    Regrowth is health on hit.
    Bloodlust is health on kill.
    Haste and Swift slaying is Attack speed.

    Kinda disagree though as a requirement. It helps but you can't rely on it to survive.
  • NoromizNoromiz 190 PointsMember, Level4, Beta Tester
    edited October 2015
    MrNajsman said:

    Noromiz said:

    Madae said:

    I think it should be added that if you don't have a bloodlust weapon (ie. a weapon that steals life on basic attack), you probably shouldn't be in Nightmare. If you haven't used one before, you really have no idea how beneficial that is. Being a good player is one thing - being a good player and being rewarded for it by being healed is another.

    Bloodlust increases your Attack Speed, you are referring to Regrowth, which have a chance to heal you.
    Regrowth is health on hit.
    Bloodlust is health on kill.
    Haste and Swift slaying is Attack speed.

    Kinda disagree though as a requirement. It helps but you can't rely on it to survive.
    Yep, I was wrong. I got Berserking and Bloodlust mixed up.

    Anyhow, I do not see why it should be a requirement on Nightmare either.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Known as Don Karnage ingame.
    If you are new to the game, you could always look up this guide Pest Control, a quick start guide to Vermintide or one of the other guides, since they will most often answer your questions :)
  • MadaeMadae 14 PointsMember, Level1
    It is an unfortunate fact that you will eventually take damage in a match, no matter how good you are. Nightmare, Cataclysm, whatever. You will get damaged, and you will need to heal. Saving health items for better situations is always a good thing. 90% of the time, I never have to use heal items.

    I suppose it's arguable, though. You do what you want.
  • NulgaraNulgara 99 PointsMember, Level3
    When it comes to heal on weapons I can go either way with it, on one hand they are super useful for those times when you got hit once and just need a top off, also cant tell you how many time my elf has healed 30% or more on a rat ogre just normal attacking it. On the other hand instakill is also incredibly useful, I honestly think it depends on your play style and your weapon choice. As a shield tank instakill on normal attack isnt going to do a whole lot for me since the majority of the time I wont be attacking with normal strikes. so in that instance heal on charged attack is more useful. however on my WH his rapier has heroic killing blow but no heal it is incredibly awesome when a rat ogre spawns and you walk up to it and 1 shot it.

    Traits overall I think is really a very large topic to cover some are situationally useful some are useful all the time some are just not ever useful within certain playstyles. Like ammo scavenger for a handgun on a shield tank, I have 23 shots 99% of the time I wont even need ammo this entire map cause if im sniping specials i'm not CC'ing the horde.

    at higher difficulties everyone should have some sort of stamina trait on everything they can get it on, but outside of that the rest are very specific to playstyle i think.
    Decapitator of StormVermin, Bane of RakOgri
    So you want to play on Nightmare+? or do you and have some tips for others stop by this thread and help turn it into a decent guide of how to get into the difficult content forums.fatsharkgames.com/discussion/2777/being-a-help-and-not-a-hinderance-on-nightmare#latest
  • JLBJLB 91 PointsMember, Level4
    edited November 2015
    You should add another thing to the weapon requirements. If you don't have a single longbow/crossbow/handgun/bolt staff, your ass is cooked. Like really. You need these to BREATHE. Better yet? Get a weapon with decreased spread, 2x SHOT (not necessarily ammo) capacity, or quicker reloads. If you're a soldier and you have a blue handgun that quickly reloads and lets you fire twice, you are lord and savior. I say soldier because, in my experience, headshots are harder as the dwarf, since he's... well... a dwarf. He also has trouble aiming in very certain cases.

    Also? Don't be mad if your BW cooks you up a little bit with her conflag spell. It's negligible (if any damage at all, I'm still not sure), and it knocks rats off you. If she scorched you, then she's probably doing that to get someone off your back during a big fight.
  • TheWallTheWall 99 PointsMember, Level3
    JLB said:


    Also? Don't be mad if your BW cooks you up a little bit with her conflag spell. It's negligible (if any damage at all, I'm still not sure), and it knocks rats off you. If she scorched you, then she's probably doing that to get someone off your back during a big fight.

    I have tried to pay as close attention for conflagration damage across several maps and I have yet to see any... The normal attack will though, and the burn for the normal as well.

    As far as the tanking goes, I would say that another mentionable skill for your x/board combo is the devastating push... I have a blue Sw/Shield with that and heal ( on Normal sadly, but you can't win everything!) and the knockback does wonders when you are faced with vermin, especially with groups of stormvermin.
  • TirovanaTirovana 101 PointsMember, Level3
    I have to say this is all great advice for players going into nightmare, but a couple of your points about telling you team about your trinket effects, the amount of times I have told the team I give the potion buff to everyone around me, the team then picks up the strength and speed potions leaving me with nothing, I have tried explaining to the team I have the magpie trinket giving me a chance to duplicate any consumable I pick up (i.e. bombs, health kits and potions) do they give me the chance to try and duplicate no they don’t. I play WW a lot other players don’t think it is necessary to communicate and see who need the ammo pickups what can greatly affect me, In nightmare I would say Regrowth is a nice trait to have not needed but also not frowned upon, I currently run an exotic bow with Regrowth, knock back, attack speed, a dagger and sword combo, with attack speed on normal hit, ammo replenish on kill and increase stamina by 2, trinkets are exotic potion aura, 2 blue trinkets one magpie (explained above) and the other decrease damage by Gatling by 40%.

    One other point to make as a WW player you say about not shooting people in the back, unfortunately it is rather annoying when you are clearing trash mobs from afar or specials and some idiot walks in front of you to do the same then making you miss your shot or hitting them, the other point to this is when you are zooming in to shoot and people stand next to you then pushing you character making you miss the target plus wasting ammo. I am only saying this to say please don’t always blame the people doing range for hitting people as it is not always there fault it can be caused from other reasons, I personally wait to take my shot but being pushed or having a player walk in front of me really does annoy me.
  • NulgaraNulgara 99 PointsMember, Level3
    Good points Tirovana, I sometimes play WW as well and it drives me nuts when people walk into me while I'm shooting, my fav is gunners around a corner I'll go zoom mode and inch to the corner so as soon as i see it i can release and always there will be someone that trys to run through me to do it literally everytime i get him in my sights and then i shoot them in the head lol. Also 100% agree with when your not engaged by a horde and your clearing the street with a bow or gun or what have you that yes there is always someone that just walks right into your line of fire, and your absolutely correct there as well that ones on them. (is probably why i prefer the trueflight bow I can target and then point up to fire so I dont hit anyone).
    Decapitator of StormVermin, Bane of RakOgri
    So you want to play on Nightmare+? or do you and have some tips for others stop by this thread and help turn it into a decent guide of how to get into the difficult content forums.fatsharkgames.com/discussion/2777/being-a-help-and-not-a-hinderance-on-nightmare#latest
  • TirovanaTirovana 101 PointsMember, Level3
    Yeh I just don’t want the whole blame to be on the rangers, though obviously it is sometimes their fault, and I know it is so annoying, as a WW I tend to class myself as a special killer or horde thinner, you take your sight on a gunner and suddenly get nudged out of the way so someone else can take a shot at it :(

    Now am I wrong in saying, don’t the imperial, dwarf and WH all have armour piercing shots? Meaning they could preserve their ammo for the storm vermin and commanders? Obviously I am not saying they don’t help with special infected but surely this is where communication comes into it, especially to help on preserving ammo.
    Yeh I do notice WW using True flight bows unfortunately I couldn’t swap my bow at the moment for one due to the traits I have, having health on hit and attack speed increase by 50% is just too good for me at the moment it really helps on those ogres, unfortunately the knock back can be useful but I would change that trait for something different if it was possible.
  • HartHart 22 PointsMember, Level1
    "6. Is your voice chat on? if no you're not ready for Nightmare"

    If you need voice chat to handle Nightmare, there's a bigger problem elsewhere in your strategy that needs to be addressed first. Anything complex enough that it must be communicated verbally rather than through text is too complex to get a group of random strangers to execute reliably.
  • MrNajsmanMrNajsman 111 PointsMember, Level3
    You never had a packmaster snatch you through a pack or a gutter runner pounce you when your teammates are facing another threat?

    "Excuse me team but I would like to point out I´m pinned and I need... oh never mind already dead."
    Must might be too much but it definitely helps
  • TrahirTrahir 12 PointsMember, Level1
    Ok, so we can add the advice for playing on nightmare, that players should put their emphasis on not running thru a shooting line of an aiming comp. or directly thru him/her.
    Especially if your grp is not in melee range of an ambush/ogre. In case of a grp melee action you should prefer to use your melee weapons anyway (like mentioned above).

    One point I would add is the use of firebombs on nightmare. Ok they can be very usefull but if you are not throwing them far away enough, it could causes too much aoe/dot damage to your grp. I don't know the exact aoe range of this bomb but it seems to be very large. I made the mistake a few times to use the firebomb on a too short range and that brought the grp every time in a really bad situation.

    So if you are in a situation to use it, hold in mind to throw it far away from the grp. In case of ambush it is not necessary to use a bomb, you need them for pats or ogres. When you use it, be aware that your grpmates are far enough away from your target.

    (sorry for this weak english, it is not my language^^)
  • TirovanaTirovana 101 PointsMember, Level3
    Trahir said:

    Ok, so we can add the advice for playing on nightmare, that players should put their emphasis on not running thru a shooting line of an aiming comp. or directly thru him/her.
    Especially if your grp is not in melee range of an ambush/ogre. In case of a grp melee action you should prefer to use your melee weapons anyway (like mentioned above).

    One point I would add is the use of firebombs on nightmare. Ok they can be very usefull but if you are not throwing them far away enough, it could causes too much aoe/dot damage to your grp. I don't know the exact aoe range of this bomb but it seems to be very large. I made the mistake a few times to use the firebomb on a too short range and that brought the grp every time in a really bad situation.

    So if you are in a situation to use it, hold in mind to throw it far away from the grp. In case of ambush it is not necessary to use a bomb, you need them for pats or ogres. When you use it, be aware that your grpmates are far enough away from your target.

    (sorry for this weak english, it is not my language^^)

    Very good point bombs can cause a wipe if used in close range, This may come under communication of when to use the bomb, as again don’t want to go wasting bombs and two people throwing them at the same horde as one is more than effective :) but it is a good point to make :D
  • TheWallTheWall 99 PointsMember, Level3
    edited November 2015
    1. Bombs hurt.
    2. Wizards fire hurts mah face.
    3. Voice chat active (not necessarily a mic) is a 100% must in any game like this. I always get those players that stop to type some long drastic answer and end up with half as much health because they had to type and not fight.
    4. Another reason why I think dwarf tank is new meta, because everyone can shoot over his head
  • TheWallTheWall 99 PointsMember, Level3
    5. Bombs should be aimed at the back of the pack or a new pack not in the fray.
    6. Handgun and crossbow units should not waste ammo on mini vermin... Ammo can be to scarce on runs to afford that.
  • TirovanaTirovana 101 PointsMember, Level3
    TheWall said:


    4. Another reason why I think dwarf tank is new meta, because everyone can shoot over his head

    So true love the Dwarf for this reason alone, he is like my little perch for me to shoot arrows over while he hold his shield up :)

  • PhenomPhenom 22 PointsMember, Level2
    I disagree with voice chat is a must. I think best is pkaying with a group that know how they work is better.

    My point is I have hard to hearing and some of my friends which playing Vermintide are deaf. And we work well i nightmare, and impossible to have voice chat with each other.

    I dont saying voice chat is bad. But write it as a must have do I disagree. More important to know the map and know how enemy work in the map and watch out player profile and around you to se whole situation.
  • PyrosaPyrosa 40 PointsMember, Level2
    TheWall said:

    4. Another reason why I think dwarf tank is new meta, because everyone can shoot over his head

    Dwarf is a must, for exactly this reason. Laying fiery waste to a horde over his stubby head (whilst he blocks) is excellent every single time.

  • QuanrianQuanrian 117 PointsMember, Level4
    Pyrosa said:

    TheWall said:

    4. Another reason why I think dwarf tank is new meta, because everyone can shoot over his head

    Dwarf is a must, for exactly this reason. Laying fiery waste to a horde over his stubby head (whilst he blocks) is excellent every single time.

    All I could think about after reading this was the Elf maneuvering the Dwarf's helmet like a down scope in your typical FPS lol. New Helmet for Dwarf includes Red Dot Scope for improved friendly accuracy when shooting over his head!
    Eat the game before it devours your life!
This discussion has been closed.